How has Jesus found his first six months at Consalia? Have the predictions Will and Phil made back in January come to pass? And what do the team think the rest of the year will have in store for the company, the sales sector, and the economy?
How has Jesus found his first six months at Consalia? Have the predictions Will and Phil made back in January come to pass? And what do the team think the rest of the year will have in store for the company, the sales sector, and the economy?
Highlights include:
- [03:22] – Making bold decisions in tough times
- [19:38] – Consalia is becoming more agile
- [25:42] – How is AI affecting sales practices?
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Connect with Jesus Llamazares on LinkedIn
Connect with Will Squire on LinkedIn
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Full episode transcript:
Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.
Will: Great. So, um, hi and welcome to this episode. It's a, it's a somewhat unusual one where we kind of take a, we reflect I guess on, on the year we, we've had so far as we're certainly in H two now. Um.
Um.
And it was quite interesting, back in January we did a review on 2024 and we were trying to put some predictions down as to what 2025 might look like.
Um,
Heus
you weren't here at the time, so you're lucky. Yeah, I didn't do the prediction. Yeah, but I, I'm just,
Yeah,
just gonna ask you if you could cast your mind back. You might not remember. What do you think, um, what, what were your, your sort of predictions looking ahead to 2025?
Phil: Well, I dunno if we had any predictions, but I think we, you know, we had hoped that there would be a bit more stability, you know, in the, in the, in the general markets.
And, uh, uh, and I'm not sure that we've actually got that yet. Uh, so I, in that sense, you know, I.
I, I had
hoped that, you know, we might be in a situation that we would have, uh, geopolitically more peace in the world. Uh, you know, we still have the Ukraine situation, which, uh,
you know, is still happening. We have the problems in Palestine.
It's still happening. If you're looking at some of the, um. Political and, and war that are going on quite plays to our borders, which is clearly having an impact on business. And then of course, uh, I think
since, uh, since then we've
probably had increased unpredictability with, uh, our friend Mr. Trump, uh, and his, um, you
know, tariff
situation, which, uh.
You sort of wake up in the morning and wonder what, what the latest announcement's going to be, which is also having a great deal of uncertainty. So the things that I'd hoped that we would've had at the beginning of the year, I don't think we have. If, if anything, I think we've moved into, um. Slightly more on unpredictability, which is having a, a negative impact on, on business generally.
I think people are taking a much longer now to make decisions, investment decisions, in, you know, sort of major infrastructure projects and so on. So yeah, it's, uh, it's, I would say it's intensified since last year.
So it's
Will: got more intense
Phil: I think so, yeah, I think, I think, I think it really has got more intense.
Will: Yeah. You also mentioned, um, yeah. Earlier, earlier in the year Yeah. That you were
were
keen to kind of make some, you know, big, bold decisions.
Yeah. We
have for Gonzales, so perhaps, yeah. Maybe we can, you can share some of these examples and then we can introduce Heus as well.
Phil: Yeah. Um, well I think that, I think that the, in, uh. The counterintuitive approach to changing markets or difficult markets is to
bunker down and actually, uh, sort of contain yourself and, and sort of not launch new ideas and, and, and not make, uh, sort of. Innovative steps unless you can see a, a quick return. Um, and I think one of the, you know, the decisions that we took at the end of last year, which of course is following through this year, is the introduction of Jesus to the team from a consulting perspective.
Um, but also coupled with that is looking at the whole area of, of ai. You know, we,
Will: the
Phil: the end of, at the end of last year, we'd. We'd, uh, introduced Phoebe, which is our digital version of the account Planning Toolkit.
Um,
and we're now sort of embracing other initiatives around the use of AI and Phoebe and beyond.
Um, and I think that a lot of that's been driven by some of the initiatives that have emerged, which, um, Jesus has taken an active role in
as
well. So, yeah. Um, one still. Um, takes a deep breath. When, when you're kind of looking, you know, does it, does it make business sense to make those sort of bold decisions at a time that your client base is being terribly reserved and constrained in the way that they are?
Investing in sales enablement and sales training, per se, you know, is one of the first things that people cut. You know, so our market conditions for the, um, traditional sales training side of what we do is, is, is one that, um, it, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's very weak. You know, the demand is very weak. And I was talking to some, um, colleagues over in America and um, it's really huge, the impact that Trump has made on their business, um, where.
Clients that, uh, or partners that we have in America
have
had 75% kind of reductions in revenue in their traditional consulting revenues. And it's, it's not just one company. It's a lot. So I would say that the traditional kind of sales training sector has been hugely impacted with the uncertainty of the market and also the noise created by ai.
As well is having an impact.
So
it's rather long answer to your question
Will: and we,
Phil: yeah. I
don't want to hog the, uh, microphone here,
Will: but
No, but I think you set the, the context really well. Okay. And, um, yeah, I mean, just on my reflections, it's certainly this first half of the year has been one that has been incredibly innovative.
innovative
For Lia.
Yeah. Um, and we can see a, a shift in what people want and I'm, and it's been driven. Yeah. The capacity that we're able to do now has been driven certainly by Heus, but Heus, yeah. So you joined, well, when January. February,
February.
February February the first. It feels like you've been here for longer than six months.
Already has, yes. Yes. But how have you found, yeah. How have you found it kind of being parachuted into Lia? How's the first sort of
six months? Well, I
Jesus: think,
I think I'm, I'm as excited or even more than I was when I started because something I've, uh, um, been able to confirm is the client's trust.
So the
amazing portfolio of customers that Lia had before I joined.
And the trust on everything we
do
that's driven
because we, we do everything with a high quality standard.
Right.
So I'm, I'm, I'm
quite excited. And, and as, as, as Phil is mentioned in the ai, I think we started to reflect ourselves about what is the future about, uh, digital in, in a broader sense. And
then,
uh, we started to think about what's gonna be our two years, three years business plan about that.
And then, uh, the AI had a. A good role in, in, in the initial conversations and through the months
have been even increasing and increasing.
And we can see now even by week,
that uh,
the AI is changing things on On everything that everyone is doing. Right.
Of
course, AI is not perfect. There are, um, several kind of features or functions that are not doing properly or the human is still the king, but, uh. But embracing the AI on whatever they're doing well is, I think is quite, quite, quite important. That's the reason why we, um, yeah, we introduced that into our plan and we are gonna be soon announcing,
uh,
great things on ai.
Phil: I think,
I think the one part of our business that
has
continued to grow is the education side, you know, which is the, you know, traditional part of what we've been doing.
I say traditional, but, um, uh, the, uh, demand, I think for the.
Level
six undergraduate degree programs is incredibly strong.
Uh, the,
sadly, the level seven and the wisdom of the UK government to, you know, stop the masters is going strong. But it will stop next, you know,
unless,
um, um. Phillipson gets sacked and someone new comes into the, uh, cabinet as education secretary and sort of backtracks, but let's assume that it's not gonna happen.
But there's
incredible, there's also incredible loyalty and interest in the exec masters kind of programs that, that we run,
Will: uh,
Phil: uh, which,
um, are.
Are also,
if we look at the revenue line kind of expanding from last year, so that part of our business is stable and it's increasing, you know, the business has, has increased.
Um,
so yeah, you've got the,
you know, sort of
Will: of tradition
Phil: tradition versus new,
uh,
playing and it just shows you can't afford to put your, all, all your eggs in one basket. You know, if we'd just been in the consulting space without the education, we would've, we would've been in a very difficult position now, I think. Mm.
But
the fact is that we've got, that, it's been run incredibly well by, uh, the academy team, you know, to your point about quality and, uh, but then it's given us the breathing space in a way to be able to explore, you know, sort of what's new, what's next, uh, with our clients. Um.
But what
you said about trust is really, I mean, the, the trust we have from the alumni is just exceptional.
It's incredible. It bowls me over every time. Yeah. That we have people who've graduated and who talk about, you know, what a difference it's made to their lives. So this blend of tradition and new, I think is, is, is going to
be really interesting
moving forward.
Jesus: I
think it's
a different level of trust from, um.
Whatever I've been seeing before, because at the end the alumni have been through two years, three years program.
Phil: That's right.
Jesus: They, they've been quite engaged. They are trans. We are transforming not just the way of, uh, working, but the way of life and personally as well. Yeah. It's so, it's, it's a more profound transformation.
Yeah. And, and, and this, this, um, builds ties between them and us. Yeah. That, uh, gives us a d trust is like a word that may have like a different levels Yeah. For different interpretations.
And that's
what I like from, uh, this month to, uh, have the opportunity to talk to some of the alumni or even some people that are, are not alumni, but are the people in charge of the sales ops or, or you know, l and d et cetera, that are engage with us.
Yeah. And through all these programs, they are. Uh, having this trust on us as you know, then we can open the door to explore new avenues that previously was not even in consulting or digital ai, et cetera, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Will: It is amazing the impact of the programs have on people, both at a personal and
at a professional level.
And, um, you know, we had graduation, didn't we?
Phil: We
had graduation and, and I just loved graduation. It's, it, it,
is,
um, it's just a chance
to of course, celebrate
their success. But
what.
what's a,
what, what I love about
it as
well is you meet
the
families.
you
know,
and you realize that
actually.
Um,
it's not
just the individuals that go through the program, but it's the whole family.
They need
the whole family, the whole family go through it.
Yes. You know,
uh, it takes time, it takes study. It's,
it's all those, those sort
of
deadlines and hearing, hearing them talk about
their
struggle,
um, but also,
you know, seeing all
the smiling faces at graduation and,
and
how proud. um,
Will: and
Phil: our parents are.
You
know, or, or partners are about
what their other hearts have
achieved. It's
fantastic. I
mean, it's really heartfelt.
It's,
Will: is.
Phil: And, and
it's quite profound.
And there's a
connection between,
uh, trust
and innovation,
which I think is
interesting.
in
the sense that, um. We, we sometimes are unaware of what we call the ripple effect that you get from
people
who go through that program who are beginning to, um, take the journey inside their own companies. And I, it is so interesting listening to, um,
Ivana's and
I dunno if you listened to the podcast, the most
recent one.
So
talking
about
things like creating,
um.
So, uh, bingo.
You know,
gamification, the gamification of the sales mindsets.
So
they have this bingo game that he's introduced in Yeah, in
the,
yeah.
In his sales
team where they spot
those that, um,
are demonstrating
use
of the,
the sales
mindsets. And it's
just a little thing.
I just love it.
You
know, the fact
that you are finding people are.
Will: are,
Phil: you know,
in the safe
space of the masters.
are Taking these
ideas and then
working out how they're gonna change the
culture
of their
sales teams,
Complex sales
teams, all over, you know, global sales teams
Mm-hmm. Through their own initiatives
and
their, you know, their life,
their journey
Will: continues.
Yeah, and I, I, there's certainly a takeaway that I get as well is, you know, all of a sudden when people finish, they graduate in their sales education programs, they always say. Well, what's next? Yeah. You know, what do I do with all that time that I had invested, um, over the, the last two years? Yeah. Um, and it's a great question to have and as you say, it's a great source of innovation Yeah.
Um, for us as well. Yeah. So, yeah, we're constantly thinking, yeah, what next? How can we, how can we support this lifelong learning sort of initiative that hopefully our programs do inspire.
Phil: I
think, I think that,
you know,
we're in a world that's incredibly uncertain and,
you
know, things chop and change and there's no doubt
that,
um,
we need to be agile as indeed our clients need to be agile.
Uh,
in the, in the way that you sort of think through, you know, what should the business model be moving forward?
Um,
you
know,
what sort of. Go to market channels should we start exploring? Um, and it's, it's, it's di we can see it with our clients. You know, the, the, um,
the
pressure on businesses to achieve short term results with the need to develop the business for long
term
is always.
Difficult to manage, you know, spinning plates. Yeah. All the time. Um,
but
the
constant that we have is our sort of education platform,
which helps, you know,
provides people a space to, to think both short and long term.
Will: Yep. Yeah. So, which kind of brings us on, I think, nicely to, um. So a question I want to pose to Heus, which is, you know, you've, you've already implemented quite a lot of change Yeah.
Within Lia, um, certainly in how we talk about our consulting practice and how we now view bespoke practice. But perhaps you can share with us how, um, yeah, how you, you've, um, um, developed Ali's practices in those areas and.
Yeah,
I mean, I've got lots of evidence, but I won't, I won't take away the spotlight. Yes. Um, but how Lia is becoming more agile.
Jesus: Yeah. I, I, I, I think,
I
think at Lia, we've been working for,
for
a few years now, um,
trying
to get the best. Sales business, sales business, uh, programs in terms of B-S-C-M-S-C are created by the university. Middlesex being the only one in Europe and us.
Um,
but I I think
when, when, when, when we, when I started and we started to have the first meetings
with the
customers, very quickly raised up that
there
are some customers that are ready to take the
commitment
to
go through long
programs,
but some
other ones that.
Maybe their industry is more agile or maybe their culture or where they they come from. Um, they,
they need, um,
a different approach, right? Uh, so maybe they have an allowance. We've seen that in many customers. They have an allowance per, per, per employee, per year, which normally is much, is, is below the,
what is the cost
for a two, three years program.
So
I think
with, um, all the modules and the best book modules we have. We've been able to create a catalog that is very flexible in terms of the content, but also in terms of the delivery
Even
We
are starting
new conversations that people was complicated because, for instance, one of the customers recently asked us if we could
split
one of the programs in two or three years
to
accommodate their policies.
Right,
and, and go under the budget, uh, they have for every year.
I
think
this has been triggered because we opened the conversation on, on modules and on flexible catalog, et cetera. Right?
So
I think we, we've, we've tried to put this into, uh, into value in front of the customers and, and understanding that every situation is different.
We, of course, love the loan programs because Ara created a formal, are the most complete ones.
But sometimes
we find situations where customers are not ready yet
to take
these kind
of long commitments. Right. Uh, in, in, even in a market where the sales professionals are changing roles or, or companies every two or 2.5 years, it's difficult to, to make
a
kind of a, a long term commitment.
But
sometimes these kind of small steps, like a three months program or, or an intervention especially designed for them, uh, is something that, um. First, uh, builds awareness of us and, and builds on our
trust.
And
second, put the first step to go farther into further programs and further interventions and further mm-hmm.
Type of relationship with the customer. So I believe this is what, what we focus on. Um, of course we refresh the value proposition. To understand that Elli is not just a business school. Um, we, we, we, we have to do more steps on that direction. We have a great foundation on the business school, and we are using this in consulting and digital, but we have these three practices that combine together is where the magic starts
to come.
Will: Yeah. And I, I think that's so important. You know, just in terms of how we, you know, work from my point of view, how we share with our customers, what Lia is capable of doing, um, has been a huge shift.
In this first half of the year now, developing the catalog. So for, for instance, Lia sits on top of a huge amount of IP developed through RBSC, our postgraduate certificates, masters, et cetera, et cetera. But when you break it down into its component part. Uh, the modules, what's included in the modules, and almost like a, a, a puzzle.
You can, you can share that with clients and they can kind of say, oh, well, I'm really interested in this part and I'm really interested in that part. Can you, how can we link the two together? You know, this is a source of innovation and it, and I think it really helps. Um. Us become more agile. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Um, and already I think we are seeing some of the benefits of, of approaching conversations like that as well. And then of course, um, you know, the, going back to what you were saying about the trust, you know, these modules have all been validated by the university. They've got that stamp of approval, so you know, the quality is assured.
Yeah. And, uh, it is just how we deliver, how we can respond to. Again, what you're saying, like the client's needs, yes. They might not want to put someone on a three year program. or two year program,
which
Jesus: connects
very well with what Phil was saying about the
uncertainty, right?
We we see on
customers
that are
more reluctant to do big investments or long-term investments because
the situation
may
change, right? There will be new tariffs coming next
week
or
things like that. So I believe that this flexibility gives us the power to. Uh, continue growing the business from the bespoke.
Mm-hmm. And, And,
and,
through the trust of generating good outcomes through these small mini programs, I will call it, or mini modules, then is when we can go to a step farther into different dimension of partnership Yeah. With our customers. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Will: Yeah. And it's, um, I mean the other shift that I've seen is just the, the speed in which we can respond to client demands. Um, and I think there's. Yeah, there's this sort of, as you, you know, as you were saying, Yeah. clients want answers kind of quickly. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, if you wait, if you wait a few weeks or a month to kind of respond You know, some of the demands can change. Yeah. And the complexity of trying to get a deal sort of over the line is becoming harder. Yeah. Yeah. So you've got to, you've got to. Show yourself to be fast and agile and to respond.
Phil: Yeah.
Yeah. A hundred percent.
Will: Yeah.
Phil: Yeah.
It's, I I,
I
think
that's been
a big
shift
in the last
six months
is,
is
being
able to
look at all
of
that IP and unravel it,
and then
put
it together into
bite-sized
chunks.
Um,
yeah. But the
interesting
thing
is, is that, um,
a a, a lot of,
um,
the
beauty, I
think about
a
lot
of the
foundational
principles in which are.
Design of bespoke programs have been
done
is
around work-based learning.
Will: Of
Phil: course.
Yeah. And
so you've got that combination of theory and practice, which is deep rooted into the
culture.
So it's
quite easy to
chunk of a two year program
down into
a three month
initiative.
much shorter, quarterly driven
perhaps,
uh, using the principles of
face-to-face peer learning sets,
um, in some
cases as part
of what
could eventually be an accredited
journey
over a period
of time, you know, if
people
want that
accreditation. It's, uh,
yeah.
So
in that, in that sense,
it's, it's been
very
interesting to see
the, the way the catalog is has
Will: developed.
Yeah. And it's been, you know, it's been great as well to see the client, our clients coming to us. Yeah. You know, pushing us.
You know, they're, they're almost
from a, you know, we talk about tactful audacity.
Yeah. Proactive creativity. Obviously we try and live these values. Yeah. But it's, sometimes it is great when the client is really encouraging us to,
you know,
develop and innovate. And I think we've seen quite a a lot of that over the, over the the, the last six months. So I'm thinking, for instance, negotiation. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm thinking online.
online
Content's being, yeah. Yeah. Now this has been driven by demand. Yeah. Um, which is great to
see.
Yeah, it
Phil: is.
It
goes beyond demand. It also
goes into co-investment.
You
know,
it's, it's interesting that
when
you know,
some
clients,
you
know, sort of have a particular problem
and they're
prepared to
invest
in
the,
um.
In,
in the
design phase
of
a new
initiative,
um, knowing
that it'll, It'll benefit
them in the
long term, but also
knowing
that it's something
that
we can use,
you know, for the
broader sales profession community,
I
suppose that comes back
to trust as,
as,
well,
you
know, I think so. It's, um,
it's just so interesting
when
you get this
sort of
degree of collaboration.
Happening with,
with clients to
drive innovation.
But
you're right, sometimes it comes from them. They've got a problem that they need solving and they, uh, it's, it's always more
difficult to be
proactively creative,
you know, as we know.
Um, but we've,
um, you know, I would say that we are doing that with certain of the initiatives that we're now kind of looking at.
Are yet to be announced and
launched.
Not
quite sure
how far
we
want to
go
on this
podcast
call to talk about
what's
gonna happen
quite
soon. But
Will: yeah,
be
careful what you, what
you say. Be careful what
we say, not disclose.
all. Yeah, because yeah.
So
I
guess I, I kind of want to shift gear a little bit. Okay. Um, and talk a bit more around AI in sales, as, as you've already alluded to.
Mm. Mm.
The fact that ai, AI is here is developing at a rate of knots at the moment. Yeah. Um, yeah. Just how, how has AI actually sort of impacted sales practices so far?
I'm
kind of taking that question and thinking about how it's impacted on how I operate. Yeah. But I'm sure you will, and Phil, you'll have a view on Yeah.
Yeah. Sort of the wider we, the greater we on how AI has actually impacted sales. So has this, perhaps you can,
Jesus: well,
I can start
the
conversation.
You
can
start the conversation,
yeah. But
definitely Phil is, uh, doing, uh, very interesting, um, interviews through the global research.
Yeah.
And probably he has also a, a lot of, so,
um, as I
said, AI is not perfect yet.
Right? So there are.
Uh,
many things that AI do better than humans, and many things that AI do much worse than humans,
right?
Uh, I
think in
sales,
the AI
is, should be seen
as
the way to augment the human condition, not to substitute. Never, ever,
Right.
I
think there is a lot of fear about this still in some, uh, in some, um, industries or
companies.
I think we've seen recently some reports of, uh, CMOs and chief sales officers
talking
about AI versus last years,
and
the percentage of people understanding that
they have to
better understand the capabilities of ai. They need to see if they can embrace on certain features, et cetera, is growing.
From
the ones that initially was like a reactive protective
protection
kind of a measure.
Um,
AI now is helping a lot on doing research, on doing meeting preparations, right?
Some,
some of the most advanced tools have agents or what we call, um, adjunct workflows.
Which
is like a kind of a combination of different agents at different stages to, to, to, to do something. We've seen companies that are building custom agent workflows for people,
for customers, for companies.
Um, we've seen a lot of software, new software, uh, AI driven that is, uh, jumping into the space.
Uh, the old, which
is not so old, but uh, you know, CRM software are trying to battle.
With
all this ai,
I
mean, we
are, we are looking into the news all the time and we
see.
Microsoft
firing 9,000 people due to ai, McKinsey for a different reason,
firing
3000 people due
to ai is,
is, not
that they're substitute, it's that some of the features or some of the capabilities are made very well by ai
that
the human is, it will take ages and it, it is better to focus the humans in whatever the humans are best and the machines are not able
to
do
now, or at least in the short term.
Right.
I think
I see AI as, um, as something that evolves every week. Um,
Even
in, in
everything
because we
talk
about sales, but then we need to talk about legal, for instance.
You can think
about, well,
what are the tools that can help to a sales
professional?
But then
when you start up to talk about, it's a new role.
You have the artificial intelligence, you have the agents, you have the workflows,
you
train the agents. Maybe sometimes you
train the
agents with
third party
content.
And there has been some,
uh,
uh,
laws in the court, in the US and, and, and here in
the, in,
in the UK as well.
I
think it's with, um, anthrop, uh, with, um, uh, get
image, right?
So there are some things about how you train all these new, uh, technology and what this train, who, who, who is,
I mean,
who is owning this training,
right?
So
even if you think about legal, there are a lot of legal questions.
Right.
So
it's not just business questions or, uh, people questions. Uh, so imagine all these
HR teams.
that are working with AI now for recruitment massively, but there are people in HR starting to build the new organization of the
future.
And some
of the boxes is an ai, it's not a person.
So,
so
we need to understand
is, I understand
people having
fear and reaction to this
as,
you know,
the,
the other
waves
as,
uh, for
I can, I
can, I can share with you a,
a
small example
of
mobile.
The
mobile telephony, which is very
common now
when when
it started people in,
I
can't say because
it's too
long
in the time Telefonica
in
the headquarters
in Spain,
they were saying this is going nowhere.
This was lonely. A a, it was a head off. It was not
even a, a
directorship.
Right.
And
there were
people reluctant
to go
through it
because they wanted to protect the status
quo.
The, the, the fixed
line.
So
this, this, has happened with many, many things. It was with internet, with mobile, with electricity, parking in the years.
So now it is, it's a new era It's a new transformation. So of course there will be things, there will be a lot of companies coming in and failing. That
always happens,
but we need to understand what are the capabilities now, and we
need to
understand how they evolve week by week, month
by
month, because these change
super fast,
right?
I
think
when you hear all the wise people around AI
working from
DeepMind or from,
uh, I mean
you have a lot of, uh, people, very, very much knowledge than me and in AI
and, and
everyone
is.
um,
is in the same position,
right? So is AI comes here to augment the human condition to improve, not to substitute,
right?
Because there
are still limitations on the most advanced ais.
I
dunno about the future. I don't
know if
there
will be a super computing
ai.
There
are
some predictions
by the 20, by 2030, this will be even a very different para uh.
uh.
world. But you know, it's very difficult
to predict because
AI is
helping
us to do things
that, so
for instance, the other day, TP Morgan, uh, said that, um, 95% of the analysis for an IPO is made now by ai.
And previously they needed a team of six people working
two weeks.
So
if you think about this in a global perspective, there are gonna be a lot of
tasks
and things
that now we will be doing much
faster
Than previously. So the, the, the, the,
the,
the
speed of evolution and,
and,
and innovation is gonna be much faster,
not because
AI is gonna be doing it, it's because AI is gonna be helping us to do the innovation much faster.
Mm-hmm.
Right. So, so, so I, I, I believe it's, it is really a transformative moment where we are, and it will affect everything. Yeah,
It will
affect everything.
But
of course
there
are a
lot of,
uh,
uncertainties yet how to use it. Many, many clients are asking us how we start, where do we start to use, what should we trust, what is the right tool, et cetera.
And
that's why, um,
uh,
we cannot
disclose, but we'll
start to talk about more into AI in the
next months
towards our,
Um,
global sales transformation
event in the London Stock Exchange by the end of November. Mm-hmm.
Will: Yeah, no,
I mean, I agree with everything you say. I feel the, the way I perceive perceive AI at this moment in time and being, you know, trying to get the most out of it, is
it all
comes down to productivity. And me as salesperson, having got all of these AI tools sort of at finger.
My fingertips is how productive can I be?
Um, and I think, I think what I can always do more and I can, you know, encourage people to view AI in that sense. Um, to say, you know, can you, can you increase your own productivity by a hundred percent,
200%,
500% because you've got the, you've got an a system that can do so much of the manual, um, tasks, so you can focus on the things that add value.
Mm-hmm. Um, having said that, I also know it takes time. You know? Yes. You've got to, you've got to, you've gotta test it. You've gotta create prompts. You've got to identify the areas of your practice mm-hmm. where you really see the impact of of leveraging. The AI tools. And so for me personally, my own reflection on it is, um, is it's just like any work-based learning project.
You know, you start with a question, how can I, how can I use AI to improve an area of my sales practice? And you test it and then you, you reflect and then you iterate and then you apply it again. Yeah. Um, but always through the lens of sort of.
I think,
Am I being more productive?
Jesus: I think, I
think one of
the things we should
probably work, uh, uh,
and
start to discuss more with customers is,
uh,
around the word trust
connected
to ai.
Authenticity.
Right. And how this connects with our sales mindsets. '
cause I
see AI should be something that help us to improve
on
how to use sales
Will: mindsets.
Right.
And the, yeah. This is something we raised back in January. Yeah. Um, sales leaders, ai, AI companies. We kind of raised the concern about authenticity.
Yeah.
Well the very word is
Phil: Artificial
intelligence.
Yeah. Yeah.
So you got, you got
the
conflict
between
the
word
artificial, which suggests
it's
not real,
it's artificial
and authenticity.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Which is trust.
So
maybe we
should invent a
a A
I,
authentic artificial int
intelligence.
Maybe
that could be a,
maybe.
Yeah.
It's a bit
of a
mouthful. but Should we
copy
right now?
Yeah.
Will: But
um,
yeah, it's Do you still
share concerns? I mean, has there been any shifts that you've seen since January? I
think
Phil: that, um.
Will: um.
Phil: I mean, I, I think
there
is going
to
be an awful lot of
work
around
the
legality
to
the point you
were making
earlier about
sort of
compliance and
making sure that the source
of the data from
which you are,
you
know, using
to
create
the intelligence is,
is
legitimate.
And
I
think there's
a
huge question mark
still about,
about
that and, and
people aren't
going to,
um, release their
ip.
Until
there are
stricter
frameworks around the legal constructs, and we're going
through this kind
of process
ourselves.
How do we protect
our own
ip?
Yeah,
yeah. In an AI world,
you
know, where.
you know, we spent years.
developing
projects, you know, we've got so
much ip, you just don't
want it
out
in the
big world
unless you have a means
of controlling it.
So I
think there's,
uh, I think
I'm, I'm
sensing
still, you
know, on the one hand, uh,
there's.
You know,
we're seeing
wider adoption
of ai.
I'm
actually
finding less adoption
with our
clients than I thought I would do
by this
stage.
Um,
that they
are not
using
some
of the
basic tools
to help,
uh,
improve the
productivity of what they do.
That's interesting.
What,
why
is that?
Um, I don't, I'm not sure at the moment. I think it's,
it's like
any new skill you need to practice, don't
you? And
you know, to your point, um,
uh,
sort
of earlier you sort
of reflect,
you
practice, you
revise, but.
I'm, I'm,
finding quite often I'm in
situations,
in workshops
where run running
with
clients where
you've, for
example, talking
about
the account planning toolkit
and you're starting to look at customer insights, you know, to the mindset
of
client
centricity
and,
uh,
what you can now do on in that
space
with AI's
Will: ai
Phil: infinitely quicker
than, you
know, the.
Honestly, it's,
it's a
pleasure
to
be able
to
get a
strategy grid
completed
in
a short space
of time.
Yeah. If
you
train the AI tool to to, to give you
that data.
But I'm finding that very few
people
at the
moment, I'm sure it's gonna quickly
take on, but I don't know. I think
the resistance
is,
it's like people
have got copilot, but how many people actually use it?
You
know,
to its full potential. I do think I'm using
copilot as much
as I should.
I'm using
chat GBTA lot.
But,
um,
I, I, I
just think it's one of
those things
that
people
are gonna
Yeah.
Over time, start using and
then
seeing
how
productive
it could be.
Jesus: We've
seen one of the, one of the,
um,
you
know, surveys that, uh, we've seen from, uh,
uh,
yeah,
well, it's, it's around a number of CEOs.
Or C levels that are taking into account, uh, AI
as a
top three priority. Yeah. Which is more than 80, 90%. But then they have another data, which is, which ones are really executing something, which is below
50.
And
I think that's because many people is still, they, I think every, everyone is perceiving that ai, they have to have a role in
ai.
They have to use the ai, but don't know
exactly what
exactly
how to do it.
Yeah, Yeah, I agree with
that.
Right.
So that's the reason why I think as a thought leaders.
In
sales space. Yeah,
we should,
I mean, we,
we,
we,
we are gonna
be
doing, having a, a position on AI very soon
as well.
Phil: Yeah, Yeah,
Will: yeah.
Phil: It's
quite,
uh,
yeah. I, I, I
would
say that everything that,
that we
have
done
in the, um,
sales
performance improvement
space is
driven by.
Uh, A
question, does
it
work?
You know,
does it
work?
And
I think
for
years before the education
side
of
the
business, for years
we've been
kind of
running
sales
training
programs. We did that global research project in 2004
to 2008.
Uh,
and
that
was.
That was quite a big aha
moment. You
know,
in those days,
does
sales
training work,
does it
make
a difference
enough to
justify the investment that that customers are
making?
And the answer
was no.
I
mean,
it wasn't
in
its own right.
It, you
know,
it wasn't
actually.
Changing
the needle in any
way.
So,
um,
this, this question, does it
work?
This
is
filtered
through into transforming our
business
into a sales
education business to be a with.
Now we've
refocused on
consulting,
um,
is driven by
this question.
Does it work? So ai, does
it
work? Is it
actually
going to. Give us the increase in productivity
that
we need.
Is
it
going to
give the, um,
you
know, back
to that human connection, the, the sort of critical reflection that we talk
about?
You
know,
do you expect
an AI agent
to give you the
answers,
or
do you expect an AI agent
to challenge the
Will: question?
Mm-hmm. I, I, think the, I mean, time, time's going to tell, time will tell, but I, but I do think that, that, um.
that
as a human, the way we need to think and the way that we exercise our own logic needs to somewhat shift a bit with, in the advent, I agree, this AI era and we need to apply critical thinking In in in different And that's gonna be crucial.
Yeah. Um, But I think at this stage in
time,
Um, for anyone, any sales person looking to have a, um,
a competitive edge anyone else, they should be really considering how they leverage ai. Yeah. But thinking like critical thinking is so important. Yeah. You know, questioning, as you say, questioning data, questioning the prompts.
Questioning, um, yeah. How, how. This can be translated. How do you as a
sales person want to use this sort of data or information the of AI in your sales
Jesus: You
know, the, the, the, the, the,
the,
the
nice thing of the AI is
that
it's
nothing new has been for more than a
decade.
The difference
is
the last language
models that.
democratize
the use of AI
for everyone
before you needed
like
a data
scientist, a programmer, so to do all this kind
of stuff.
Now you have, in natural language,
you ask,
and then this is transforming to ones and zeros
into
a
program that does
the job,
right.
So I think one
of the,
one of the, uh, wiser comments I have heard recently is on the critical
reflection.
Connected
to
the ai.
So they say it's like the first 20% is
the human preparing
the prompts
or
doing the right,
or choosing
the right AI tool to
make things.
Then
there
is like
a
60 or
or
60%
of the job
to done
by
the,
by
the
ai,
which
is
all
the groundwork or researching on different
companies, uh,
company
reports, finances,
et cetera.
And then
there is a last
20%,
which
is
on
the human
to
understand
if
this
is correct
and do
critical reflection
before
presenting
anything
to
anyone.
Will: Yeah.
Jesus: Right.
So
that's
how we should see
the ai,
like
a
tool that
augments our
function and ask
us
to.
Be faster on
repetitive and,
and
maybe
things that
you
know, because if,
if you
have
one hour to do a research.
Well,
you have one hour, you get to certain
point,
but maybe
10 minutes of prompting
gives
you an answer that you will need like five hours or six hours
or
two days,
so then you can use the rest of the time that is saved. Yeah, to really think about the last 20% and how to,
to, to
have this conversation and nurture the relationship with your
customer.
That's how,
how
I
see
it
at least.
Will: Yeah.
So then
looking ahead
of the, of of the second half of the year,
are
you asking
for
Jesus: predictions?
I'm
Will: asking for predictions.
I'm trying to, you're
Phil: helping
Will: on
that
front.
Phil: Why
Will: Yeah, but he moderates,
Jesus: he's the first
one to,
so
Will: I'm asking for
your
Phil: predictions.
So, oh, predictions on
what
level,
You know,
will,
will the war
in Ukraine be
finished by
December?
I remember
having
a dinner, dinner party. We were
laying
bets as to
when
will
the war,
you know,
uh,
sort
of be,
be finalized.
I
remember
people it
surprised
me. People
were saying
by
April
time,
yeah.
This year,
yeah.
So difficult
to know.
Isn't
it so
predicting the
next
six
months?
I don't know.
Will the
tariff
situation have
settled down
by
then?
Jesus: I think the tariffs is gonna be up and down
all
the time.
You know,
it's like a, it's like a dance. One step throw one step from little
Phil: hand grenades.
Jesus: Yeah.
Phil: Yeah. Instantly. Yeah.
It
was interesting.
I
was
talking
to
someone
in
Vietnam,
uh, yesterday.
Or was
it this
morning?
Yesterday
and, uh,
time
Bus and I, because Vietnam had what, 47% tariffs at one
stage. Yeah. I
said,
how
is
it
in Vietnam at
the moment? We're
tariffs. I said,
it's
okay.
It's
20%.
Yeah,
we can live
with
that.
You
know, they were,
they were
okay. But
anyway,
but
I, I don't know. I don't,
I will
it still be the same? I don't know.
I
think
what,
I think
there's going to
be a global recession.
You
know, I
think
that,
you
know, the,
the
problem that
we
have
is not just the
tariffs, it's
debt
and,
uh, yeah, the ability of,
of, uh,
particularly
the US
economy
to serve its its debt.
And
that's
going
to
be a
constraining effect
on
Will: business. It's a big, beautiful bell. if that goes through, that's, uh, that's, yeah, that's adding,
Phil: yeah.
It, it's like
a
grenade that's
hasn't quite exploded,
but
at
the
point that the
debt
to
income ratio
is just
unsustainable. It's going
to
be pretty hard.
That
maybe,
maybe
will come
up with
some other way
of
rethinking,
uh,
how finance model should work.
In terms of building economic confidence
and I don't know,
I,
I
think it's,
it's, you
know, the growth years that we had maybe 20 years
ago.
I'm not
sure that we're
gonna see that
in,
in the next
year or
so. No.
Will: No.
Jesus: but
it's
gonna be really, I
think
it's very difficult to
predict
anything.
Right.
So,
um, I, I was,
I
was looking into some news that we had in the last days, so I dunno if you've, uh,
noticed
that
like, companies like, uh, perplexity.
Will: Yeah.
Jesus: Or, or, uh, open ai, they're
investing
to create
their own, uh, chip
sets.
So it's, it's, it's a tremendous move from software
to
hardware
Yeah. into
the
value chain.
So
I
I think I need, I, again, I, I don't want to focus all the conversation on AI because we have so many
things,
uh,
but it's, it's
gonna be so transformative for the tech industry.
Phil: What
about
climate
change?
I
know we
have, we've
spoken
about technology and we,
you
know,
The data
centers need
water.
We have drought
in
the uk, so
how
are we gonna
cool the data
centers that're hoping to build in the
UI mean, I,
I'm, I'm,
being
Jesus: connected
to this. They,
these companies
are also
thinking
about to create
their own, uh, nuclear power
plants.
At
a company level.
Phil: Okay.
So
uranium is manufactured in
three countries.
Jesus: Yeah,
per se.
I'm
not
the
expert
in that. They're
Phil: all,
you
know,
they're
all
in
heavily disputed areas.
Yeah. Anyway,
I'm going
off
track, really. But
I mean, it's,
I
mean, there's so many kind
of
levers that affect,
um,
business.
It's
not
just ai.
it's,
it's also,
you know,
resources. Natural
phenomena.
Yeah. It's scarcity.
You know,
we're doing
a
lot of
work with
a mining company
at
the
moment.
We
know
that there's only
80 years
left of
copper
that
can be mined
out
of the
mines
that
are
currently in existence.
So
you need copper
to drive
Will: electrification.
Yeah.
Phil: So maybe we'll start
building
Will: Phil you are painting a very bleak picture.
Jesus: We need
to be positive.
Phil: Of course I'm always an optimist,
you know, that.
Will: And these are, these are things bleak that are outside of our control. So let's focus in on, on,
That's, let's, um, let's look at the six months Six. What would
you.
yeah. Would, do you wanna see? Well, actually I
Phil: think we, we are definitely
going to
do,
have a better six months of
the six months ahead
than
we've had
in the first six months.
Okay. Yeah.
That's your, so
yeah. It'll
Will: be
better. had quite a good first six months.
Yeah. But it will be better. You
want better? Okay.
Jesus: No, but
I, I, I
agree
with this because
if you think about that, uh, on
the first
six
months there
has
been
so many things
happening.
Mm-hmm. So
many,
so much
changes.
So
people
now
is more.
Prepare for, continue with more changes,
right.
I think,
Will: yeah.
I
hope. But
I, think,
yeah, I have say.
since we've
started these sort of podcasts and yeah, discussions, when has it not changed? Change has been on a constant thing. Um, and we uncover and our clients must be used to it by now.
Hmm.
Phil: I don't
think they
are.
I think
I think the
level,
sorry,
I'm being
negative slightly,
but I think,
you
know, we've
talked
on
your
last sales
frequency episode
about fatigue.
There's
so much.
Um. Change
going on
And
that
people
are
exhausted.
Jesus: Yeah.
Phil: There's
so many
things going on.
So I think,
I think it's,
uh,
I
think it's, it's a, it is tough.
Yeah,
it's
a tough whole world out there,
but there's always, sorry, back to being
op, you know,
optimistic. There's
always an opportunity
in,
you
know,
whatever situation
you're faced with,
they'll always be.
an
opportunity.
Jesus: Well, I, I, I learned that
when
when in my, uh, when
I was in Accenture
years ago,
I was surprised in my early years, uh, that
uh,
the economic, there was an economic downturn.
And
this
is
the moment where consultants start to invest
and see
opportunities,
right? So it's like
Will: it's
like
Jesus: the trigger.
To see these opportunities.
When you see consultants really investing and doing all this kind of stuff, then the
economy goes up again.
Yeah.
And
I, I, I had the chance to see this at
least twice.
Yeah.
I
was, the first one was, I was surprised the first time. Yeah. Second one I
was more,
yeah,
yeah.
But
at, but at the
same time, you have to be bold
to do
these investments in a moment where the,
the,
the
economy is going down.
It's not easy.
Phil: Yeah,
Jesus: it's not
easy.
Phil: So
I wonder
with all
the layoffs that you mentioned earlier, within the
consulting groups, whether
it,
they say
automation is helping
us reduce,
or
is it,
or is it
actually,
there's
less
consulting
going on
and they're
laying off
people
because
they
haven't got the work
Uh, so
I
think the
world of how
do you
show
up
in
the
world?
I suspect
it's a bit
of
both.
Jesus: I
think the world of consulting is gonna be changed. Yeah. Now.
Uh,
because even if you don't know how to do consulting, you have amazing charge GPT that can help you to do a lot of stuff.
Yeah.
So that's the reason why I think that McKinsey
made a shift
because there were, like JP Morgan is the saying, like there are a lot of manual tasks that can be done by the
ai.
But
it's still, AI is not giving the full a hundred
percent solution. Yeah.
So
they are refocusing on on that
part.
Yeah. Which is
the human element. Right.
And
that's what probably consultants
must do.
Yeah.
We
need, we need to embrace AI
to,
because everyone
else
is doing it. It's not just if you want to do it or
not.
I mean,
everyone
is doing
it.
So you
need to understand how to embrace it, what to embrace it
on,
and then use it in a way that you are still competitive
and.
Uh,
provides value to the companies yourself in a different perspective,
right? Yeah. So
I think, I
think this is, this is transforming, right? Uh, many of the many things of the world we know now.
Will: Great.
Well, I guess that's reasons for hoop, I
guess, but the, of AI always, you know, change is a source of innovation. Phil, what I'm taking from what you just says. Yes. Necessity is a mother of innovation. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a good one.
That's
true.
Um, and yeah, I think for me it is, yeah. You know, all, it's all about productivity to gain a competitive advantage.
Yeah. Um,
but
thank you very much and yeah, let's see, let's check in in January next year.
Phil: Thank
you very
much.
Cheers. Thank you. Cheers.
Bye.