It’s another Mastercast episode this week on the Sales Transformation Podcast as Phil is joined by another recent graduate of our master’s programme: Ivano Fossati, Chief Revenue Officer EMEA at SAP Customer Experience.
Ivano shares insights from his Master's project on 'Value-Based Selling in the Age of Innovation', emphasising a shift from traditional ideas of Total Cost of Ownership to a model that focuses more on innovation. He discusses the importance of emotional intelligence, customer value, and internal collaboration, as well as how his ideas have been implemented within SAP.
Highlights include:
- [03:36] – Value-Based Selling in the Age of Innovation – what led to the title?
- [19:13] – What drives emotions during selling can differ by stakeholder
- [34:20] – Shifting to a listening mindset
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Connect with Ivano Fossati on LinkedIn
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Full episode transcript:
Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.
Phil: Okay, Ivano. First of all, I want to say just a huge thanks for, um, taking part in this, um, sales transformation podcast series, uh, the mastercast, as we call it, uh, for those people who've completed the Master's project. So welcome to the Sales Transformation Podcast.
Ivano: Thank you so much, and thanks for inviting me.
Phil: Um, so Ivano, just before we get started, um, I just wonder if, for the benefit of the listeners, you could just, um, tell us a little bit about who you are and, uh, what kind of role you have, and, and then we can move into the, the detail of your, um, your project a bit later.
Ivano: Yeah. Okay. So, uh, Ivano Fossati, I am Italian, and, uh, my role now is Chief Revenue Officer in the line of business inside SAP that is named customer experience.
So customer experience is the line of business in charge of emotions. Okay. While we normally say that the majority of, uh. Of the software is to measure, uh, API. So the key performance indicators, customer experiences in charge of the EPI, the emotional performance indicator. And you know, as a Chief Revenue Officer, I'm in charge of revenue strategy, sales, leadership, marketing, alignment.
Customer success and retention and all the cross-functional collaboration and growth initiatives inside my line of business. My role is at EMEA level. So it goes from Lapland down to South Africa.
Phil: Oh, that's, that's fantastic. So, um, I'm sure we'll come back to, to, you know, sort of how your research project has sort of integrates with your role a bit later on.
But, um, sounds like a pretty responsible role you've got. Indeed. I'm sure there's a lot of scrutiny on your part of the business. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. Indeed. Yeah. Yeah. There is. Brilliant. Okay, so, um, uh, let's get, uh, involved in, in, in the, in the, in the project. So I, I, I guess we need to start with, um, maybe firstly the reason that you actually decided to do a master's.
In the first instance. So what motivated you to embark in your busy life with lots of responsibilities? Uh, on on the master's journey.
Ivano: The main reason was to improve myself as a person, and of course, uh, as a leader, but as I normally say, someone else will judge about the leadership. I definitely feel now a better person. So, uh, I also collected a lot of very positive feedback from people who went through this path before me. And so I was very excited at the beginning.
I was a little bit, uh, you know, skeptical because of this. You know, a timing topic with the family, with work, but in reality, I really enjoyed a lot and it was worth every minute, and I really, really recommend this to everyone.
Phil: Well, well, that's lovely for you to say. Thank you. Thank you so much, Ivano. Um, okay, let's, let's get into the, uh, let's get into the journey that you embarked upon and, um, I think we.
You know, when we start to look at the, uh, title of your, uh, project, if I, I'm just going to read it out, which is value-based selling in the Age of Innovation, semi klon Moving beyond TCO. Um, to, to create competitive advantage. Now what, what, what I love about, uh, the world of academia ivano is that, is that somehow one ends up creating fairly long sentences to, and do you know something?
I can never forget my own, uh, but, uh. No, this is great. So it's obviously about value-based selling. Uh, you talk about innovation in your title. You mentioned this word, TCO, total cost of ownership, and you talk about competitive advantage. Why, why was this so much of a concern for you as you embarked on the project?
Ivano: Well, my main concern has always been to remain relevant to our customers, and I have noticed, uh, that concept of value as a benefit for our final customers has scope of improvement for improvement. Today we are in the cloud era, and it's not anymore about selling today, it's about establishing long-term partnerships to co-create business together with our customers.
So this is the main goal. And uh, today also there are many new players. Uh, in the space compared to years ago, and this gives to our customer, you know, a broader range of options to switch if they are not happy with solutions. And, you know, in this context, the total cost of ownership cannot be the only factor driving sales like it was, especially, you know, in the monopoly age.
So my research really concentrates on shifting from this total cost of ownership mindset to what I call the TCI. So the total cost of innovation, because if you. Express the value of innovation, then customers really follow you in this kind of co-creation. And funny enough, I chose this topic already at the end of module two.
So quite at a very beginning, more or less, uh, because I was, I was fascinated by the third box thinking concept that was introduced, and I found it very, very relevant to my needs.
Phil: Yeah. Um, yeah, so fantastic. I'd love to come back to, um, you know, some of the key things that has influenced your thinking. Um, but you mentioned the word value, and I, the, one of the things that I put, uh, sort of picked up in your research project was going right back to the, the definition of the word value.
And, um, you talked about, you know, joining the dots between the two definitions. Um, I, I know I, unless you've got your Master's project close to hand. I have, I have. You have. Okay. So could you just talk the listener through, um, what you know. What that word value means, because I think that's quite intrinsic.
You know, it's quite intrinsic, integral to some of the research, uh, approaches that you then took.
Ivano: Yeah. So I put two definitions, now I'm going to read this one. Uh, the first one is the principle or standards of behaviors. Okay, so once judgment of what is important in life, and this, you know, came from my family, my experiences during my life.
Uh, and the second definition is the regard that something is held, held to deserve the importance worth or usefulness. Of something. And this is much more related to what we do to be valuable for someone else. Yeah. And I try to combine in my research, these two definitions, you know, starting from my values that I cannot change in any case because these are really part of my foundation.
Uh, yeah. To the values of our customers that are always in evolution. So this is really something that's changed, but combining my values, my personal one with our customers, my customers, their personal ones. So I need to have this kind of emotional intelligence to understand what they really need to get the most out of what we are selling.
Phil: Yeah. It is so interesting that you've picked up on this because, uh, I had a sort of parallel experience when I was doing my doctorate and, um, sort of having done the doctorate. I was, I was talking, um, to the editor of, of a publication about my research and wanting the publication perhaps to take a look at my research to have it published.
And I remember talking to the editor and he said to me, well. You know, there's nothing new about value based selling. I mean, as a, as a concept. It's been around for many years and I really struggled, uh, but did in, in the end, uh, sort of. Uh, get him to realize what I was talking about. Yeah. Was actually, there's a big difference between value and what I've called values.
Um, and I think this is a little bit what you've made the connection with in the definition, you know, that we can look at. A value is one of our values, which is the personal kind of, um, aspect of what makes us who we are, and then value, which is the, you know, the value, the, the, the, the value of the solution that, that, that we're selling.
So I was very glad that you called it out in your research paper, actually, the difference between the two. But I, I still think that for many people, um. The connection between the two, even though they mean two different things, two completely different things actually. They're so interconnected, uh, in the sales world.
Yeah. As, as you've demonstrated. So thank you for, for doing that, Ivano. Thank you for calling it out. Yeah. Um, okay. So this is the, the kind of topic, um, along the way of your, your research journey. You, um, and you've talked about some of this already, there's certain influences that, um, have affected your points of view.
And you mentioned, you know, third box thinking and. This comes through our US partners, um, kind of concept, which coincided with the research, you know, um, earlier on. But what, what were the other authors? What were the other things that you studied, um, as you were kind of just collecting data? This is outside of your own personal research that you would say had a big influence on, on, uh, on your project.
Ivano: Yeah. So, um, across the masters I draw and you, you find in my research the value cycle, okay? Which starts with, uh, act positively. So have the right behavior, the right mindset. And this comes of course, you know, without flattering. But this comes mainly from your book. Then step number two, uh, if you have the right sales mindset, then you have to be ready to listen to.
Understand not to respond, not to reply. This is what we normally do. We start to respond just even before uh, the question has been finished in the majority of the cases. Then the third step is nurture your growth mindset. Okay? Never stop learning. And this is also what I did when I embarked into this master.
Then fourth step is this. Think outside your box, this third box thinking.
Phil: Yeah.
Ivano: Step is position. The value is quality versus quantity. Okay? This makes really the difference. And the last one, the last step in my value cycle is to adapt the the right leadership style, which is not predefined, but it changes.
Exactly depending on the situation. So, long story short, um, authors, uh, uh, were in the range of, you know, uh, sales mindset, growth, mindset, uh, listening, leadership. I did a lot of course of research about value-based selling with articles, academic, and also articles from some blogs. Um, but. This is mainly the area where I focus myself.
So I went through many books, many research. Yeah. But my main focus was around this art. And Phil, if you let me, um. One, um, let's say author, one set of authors or literature that are normally underestimated is customer emails or calls after meetings to gather feedback, to listen again for understanding and not to respond.
This was to me, also great source of information because you can study the theory, but if you do not listen what is really happening in the field, you cannot be successful.
Phil: Right. So, so, um, so part of your research then approach was to study, um, was it emails or was it formal interviews that you did with customers? I mean, how, how did you collect the information from a customer perspective?
Ivano: Yeah. So, uh, in terms of methodology, uh, I discovered with this muscle because it was not, part of my background is action research, and I liked a lot the fact to work with people, together with people to get to an outcome rather than working on people, you know, just collecting things and then disappearing.
Uh, I, um, decided to go through a qualitative. Okay. A methodology, uh, involving interviews with valuable stakeholders. Okay. Rather than quantitative methods to gather extensive data. I also did not have the time, but I interviewed 12 people, but, uh, I mean very valuable in terms of stakeholders from internal colleagues up to executive to partners and customers.
And I run this in the majority of the cases in one-to-one face-to-face, and a few cases I run through, uh, teams. Yeah, and I applied, uh uh, again, I studied in one of the module the coaching, but I applied this grow model in my interviews starting from the goals going to reality. So what's the situation right now?
What are the option with the different forks if we take option A or option B to get them to what's next? This is the way I conducted my, uh, investigation and my analysis.
Phil: Okay. That's great. And can I ask, um, sort of generally when you approached, you know, customers, partners, and internal colleagues with, with this project, um, how did they respond to your request for them to participate in your master's project?
I have
Ivano: to say that I was, uh, very positively surprised that they were all very, very collaborative and very, very interested in learning the topic, because as I said, I mean, there is a big shift, you know, from TCO to TCI. So the topic is a topic of interest, and all of them, customers, partners, colleagues, they ask me, Ivano, can we get a copy of your final project?
To see the outcomes, especially because we are really interested. So I had to send, send them this, but they were very interested. I simply told them the topic beforehand without giving any kind of guideline to avoid Yeah. You know, biases or uh, any other kind of influence. And then we had very open discussions.
Phil: Yeah.
Ivano: And as I said, I let them talk rather than me talking.
Phil: Yeah. So can I, uh, so coming back to this sort of title of your project, um, and, you know, what, what, were you surprised at all or to what extent were you, uh, you know, what did you learn from the interviews that you did that, uh, eventually help shape.
Um, your sort of final conclusions from the exercise. 'cause I think you've raised some really interesting points in your, your project about even understanding, you know, the word of TCO versus TOI and so on. So yeah, please, you know, share, share, share some of the, you know, the, the things that maybe surprised you and you learned from.
Uh,
Ivano: yeah. Well, well first of all, uh, the TCO is not ev okay. So, uh, we have to take definitely into consideration the TCO because it is important for many customers because, I mean, there's a financial component behind, uh, every company. So the TCO is not really able, so we don't have to forget about it. But on top of it.
I mean, I was really, uh, surprised to listen from all the people that the value is in their mind. I was surprised on the other end that, and when I asked, okay, what are the actions that you are, uh, let's say conducting in order to execute this value? And still, uh, we are much more in the theory rather than in the execution phase.
So this was a little bit surprising me because still there is this mandate. To, uh, try to get to the objective, which is part of this mindful, uh, sales, mindful that is a little bit selfish. Uh, but really they were all interested in learning from me and listening from me. Yeah. What can we do? To really shift our mindset to go much more into the value because customers are demanding value.
And my challenge failed during all the interviews was, okay, we are all consumer. Yeah. So let's try to sit on the other side and think we are consumer. When we buy from a brand, what do we buy? We buy an emotion normally. Okay. Something that triggers an emotion. Yeah. And, and an emotion is trigger if I have value.
Not because of the brand. So we had very good discussions about it and I have to say that I also collected some good inputs and good ideas.
Phil: Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah. So it was interesting that you've made some comments about your, you know, sort of slightly surprised at the focus on financial as well.
Metrics for value, not some of the emotional context for value. And you felt that was, uh, that was more supplier centric. Correct. Perhaps, and, and customer centric. And I think that's such an important message, um, to, to get across. Um, I suppose this is a slightly a side comment because even if we just take TCO, uh, um, and being able to articulate your value proposition in financial terms, um, from, from my experience, and there may not be yours, but you know, there are very few, uh, very few commercial salespeople actually that have the.
Um, the skill sets and the knowledge to be able to really understand how to put together a sort of powerful, uh, TCO argument. I know this is not the focus of your, your project, but I, I'm just interested to, for you to kind of an, you know, share with me what your thoughts are on what I've just said.
Ivano: Uh, yeah.
Well, I remember one comment that was, uh, well, Ivano, TCO is also triggering an emotion to the CFO of a company. Yeah. Which is true in, in reality. So, um, again, one of the outcome from my interview was that, and, uh. Really, uh, the emotion or, uh, the financials rather than the innovation depends really by the stakeholder you are working with in that very moment.
So, yeah, financially is also important. And it's also important because, I mean, we are a company that we are listed and of course we have also commitment. With, uh, with our stakeholders and we are growing very, very well. So, uh, there's a financial side, but as I said, it's a competitive market. It's cloud. Uh, it's a little bit easier to swap solution now.
Yeah. So we have to really think, one of my conclusion was that to, to a certain extent, uh, renewals are much more important than sales in the cloud business because it gives you continuity with your customers.
Phil: Absolutely.
Ivano: Yeah.
Phil: Uh, yeah. And yeah, absolutely. No. Brilliant. No, really, really interesting. Um, okay, so, um, how did you start to, you did all of these interviews, how do you, how did you start to organize, um, the outputs of your interviews, uh, into sort of themes?
Uh, I wonder if you can talk through what sort of themes emerge that have become interesting for you?
Ivano: Yes. So I, even if I only interviewed only quote 12 people, I gathered, uh, a lot of information. And so, uh, I went through, okay, how can I now analyze this? And I went through the thematic analysis, okay, which focuses on identifying, analyzing and reporting patterns, uh, from my qualitative data.
Uh, through, um, seven, uh, steps low. And, uh, all the information I collected, I grouped in four themes, so it's differentiate, differentiation, and positioning. I discovered that, uh, uh, still sometimes we do not invest enough time. Uh. In studying and learning, uh, uh, you know, how we can differentiate our value proposition, how we can position ourself in the best way possible, uh, because we are still sometimes still focused on features and functions.
Okay. Again, so we try to differentiate ourself with technology. We are a technology supplier. That's fine, but what's the value you can get from my technology if you don't? Yeah. Uh, bring this to the table. Customers might think that technology is an enabler. So I can switch from one to another, which is not the case.
The second stream, uh, the second theme was benchmarking competition and value enablers. Again, we do not invest, uh, enough time. In running benchmarks, uh, industry based or competitor based. And again, we lose traction if we don't do this because preparation is 90% of success. So we need to prepare this and the moment we prepare, we have much more relevant content to deliver to our customers.
Yeah. The third team was stakeholder power heat map. Uh, my company, uh, has a huge portfolio of solutions and we have to address our messages to different stakeholders, uh, because sometimes you have to sell to the CIO In my line of business, customer experience is mainly to the chief revenue officer or to the chief marketing officer or chief operating officer.
So. We need to create a power heat map to understand who can influence, what are the concerns around this? What can they control? And here, you know, we go back to again, something that was inside the master, uh, the circle of. Uh, control, influence, and concern. Uh, this is something that we have also to apply to our customers.
Okay, so, um, and then the last theme was leveraging internal resources. We have so many great resources with industry knowledge, technology, knowledge, business case knowledge. A good sales is a good orchestrator, good sales leader is a good orchestrator, and that's where we have to focus because if we trigger and if we take the right resources, we can be successful in the three teams before.
Phil: Hmm.
Great. So, so have you. Um, so these four themes, differentiation, benchmarking, leveraging internal sources, shareholder heat map, um, are are great sort of conceptual themes. Have you had a chance yet to have seen evidence of. Applying some of your new thinking with, with, with, uh, the sales teams. I know you've got a very large sales team now that you're managing, but I'm just wondering to what extent you've taken the, the themes from your research and I, you know, maybe it's not enough time yet, you know, because it's only recent that you finished your project.
Um, any results from, from applying these to, to customers?
Ivano: Yeah. Uh, well, I have to say that even if I finished few months ago, a few months ago, uh, we are already implementing, um, and we, um, we are already experiencing a good result, uh, shift of mindset. So, first of all, my document, I told you, Phil, that I'm sharing, uh, uh, it's not a secret.
So, uh, it, it, my document isn't static. Okay. Yeah, I've been sharing with colleagues, especially, you know, after I mentioned to them about my research, as I said before. Um, and, uh, I already had five sessions where I explained to extended team my investigation, the outcomes, and ask them to come up with new ideas so we can keep the document alive and dynamic, not written in the stones.
That's amazing. At that point, we, we are implementing focus groups on value-based selling with sub, let's say teams. Active listening. Yeah. Uh, third box thinking, emotional intelligence. Again, all the combination of all these three things, uh, really helps to develop the value and, uh. I've spoken to the regional leader for, uh, our enablement, and she's working now to identify together with me the appropriate listening, uh, learning activities and value-based selling activities.
So we are investing also in terms of enablement for our teams, and it's not only for sales, it's also for pre-sales, and it's also for customer success management and business development. Um. One funny way we are implementing this with some teams is gamification. Okay? So I took basically, you know, from your book, uh, Phil, uh, the four, uh, negative, uh, uh, mindsets and the four positive mindsets, and we printed it.
On a card and we call it, uh, you know, the, uh, sales mindset. Bingo. So especially when we do the preparation, of course, not in front of a customer, but when we do the preparation and we introduced a lot of role play, um, we mark. Uh, the good or bad behaviors. And at the end of the meeting we can identify who, who went the bingo, hopefully in the positive and not in the negative one.
And then you can, you know, uh, we can have some fun. That's, that's also an important way to, um, introduce and to teach this notions in a gamification way. Role play. We introduced role play. This was another conclusion, so. Try to put yourself in someone else's shoes and challenge. Challenge like you are the customer.
Uh, and last but not least, we put, uh, a lot of effort in support from artificial intelligence. We have now this technology, this came a little bit after my conclusion, but I discovered, uh, um, a way to create a script where, hmm, we can gather information, you know, about customers, not about our solution, this we know, but, uh, sometimes, you know, to, yeah.
Prepare a good meeting with a customer. You have to spend a lot of time investigating and finding a lot of, uh, papers. Yeah. Um, AI is helping us to highlight the pain points so we can define then our strategy there. So we are moving from a tactical approach to a more strategic one. And last point, I am encouraging people to conduct their own research to compliment not my knowledge, but our knowledge.
That's the key point. And they have, they are doing, uh, there is a colleague from South Africa who built a great, great set of slides, presentation, taking some of my concepts he enriched. So we are pushing it.
Phil: Wow. It is, it's fantastic to see how, uh, you've embraced the learning from the masters and you know, wrapping around it your own take on some of the concepts and started to populate that within your team.
And then it's wonderful they hear how people in your team are taking your ideas. It's.
Master, you know, this being a Master of Science program as opposed to a Master of Arts program. Um, 'cause we argued the case with Middlesex when we got the program kind of first established, should it be an MSC or should it be an ma? And we argued that this was a science, a body of knowledge that people could then build upon and, and add to.
It was not like just, um. Of doing discreet one-off projects. Yeah. And it's just fantastic to see how you've done that. Um, within, uh, within your team, can I, can I just ask how your team members are reacting to this? Because, uh, you know, some of the concepts are fairly academic, um, and, uh. And probably not traditional in the, in the SAP kind of environment in which you're working.
Uh, how, how, how have you found it? How have you in inverted comm sold the idea, you know, to your team? So this will be a good thing for them to do.
Ivano: It is. I mean, uh, as I said, uh, uh, my line of business customer experience that is part, you know, of our business suite. It's all about customers. So value is definitely one of the key points and we have to differentiate ourself also compared to competitors.
So it's very appreciated and, uh, the team is, uh, asking. As I said, I've run already five sessions. Uh, they are dropping me emails after I share my, my final project. They are coming back with, uh, comments, feedbacks, additional ideas that I said, oh, I should have thought about this during my final thesis.
Yeah, so I have to say that, uh, it's, it is very well, uh, accepted and appreciated. Of course, it's not something you can do from one day to another, but, um, yeah. Uh, I'm happy with the results we are working on, and even our leaders, um, yeah, senior leader and executive, they're pushing more and more the fact that value based is where we have to focus.
Yeah.
Phil: Yeah. That's great. But I'm sure even actually you raised an interesting point about upward uh, sponsorship as well. Um, is that again, you know, to what extent have you felt you had to explain the concepts to the people that you reporting to in order to get them to fully understand what you've been doing?
Ivano: Uh, I had full collaboration and cooperation even from people with a very busy agenda because the topic is a topic of interest. So it was not, uh, let's do this because we know ivano, but it's because, you know, the topic is really a topic where we want to go through. I shared my, um. My final project, I collected some good feedback.
Good. Not in terms of, you know, for me, but about the fact that it's useful and we can develop. So, yeah, full again. Um, SAP has changed a lot in the past years and now the, the leadership is uh, is a team very, very open to embrace this shift,
Phil: this
Ivano: transformation.
Phil: Yeah, that's fantastic. Okay. Well, I, I mean, it's been a really interesting to, um, sort of hear your, your, you share your, your, your kind of story.
Um, do you have a what next? I think you've already started speaking about some of the actions that are already happening in your teens. Yeah. But where, where do, where do what? You know, what is the what, what next? Uh, do you have any personal, what next, uh, thoughts that are in your mind? D. I want to continue
Ivano: my investigation, okay.
In this topic. So as I said, it's not that I've wrote the project and it's finished, so I am always reading new things. As I said, when I discover this script about how to leveraging ai, uh, in supporting value-based selling for me was another injection of enthusiasm. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that's one point. The second, um, we are really investing a lot, starting from me in really listening, visiting, customer listening, because one of my conclusion is that there is, uh, a shift of mindset needed in the company, but there's a shift of mindset needed.
Also the customer's point of view, and we have to help our customers because they. Sometimes do not really understand their true needs. Uh, there is an issue with trust and credibility. Um, they see some solution rigid, so we have to help them also, uh, to better understand our value proposition. And it's not only on our shoulder, it's also on their shoulder.
So these are the main, what's next from my growth that I'm doing?
Phil: Yeah, because you do refer to the coaching framework. Yeah, exactly. You know, in your research, and it's so interesting that you would sort of include. Coaching the customer through the journey. Um, and I remember one of your predecessors at SAP, actually who, who works in this part of the world, in Singapore, where I'm conducting this interview, um, actually sort of used.
Coaching as a sales methodology, as a, as a, as a way of engaging with customers. And, uh, yeah, it, it sort of lends itself also to this idea of, um, co-creation, uh, sort of how do, how, how do we get innovation? Sort of coming into the conversations with customers, which could then lead on to value-based selling, uh, which you've talked about.
Yeah. So I love the way you brought together these themes. Sorry, INET.
Ivano: Oh. If you leverage and grow on, on coaching the grow methodology or any other, but on coaching. So you let them talk, you are forced to listen. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't talk about features and functions and, uh, how nice is your solution compared to others?
You listen to their real pain points, you challenge them and you go exactly through this. What's the objective? Where are we now? What are the possible option? Okay, what's next? So let's meet up in a week, a month. So you define a plan. So I found it very useful.
Phil: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the, um, if you are looking at what, for you have been some of the key sort of personal takeaways from the journey that you've been on over, over the Master's program, not just about your final project, but, but just generally, um, what would you say were some of the, the key takeaways from, uh, your experience of doing, doing the Master's program?
Ivano: as I said, I mean, uh, I, I think, I mean, uh, I changed Okay. Some of my behavior, uh Right. And I think to be a better person. Okay. In terms of leadership, I let other people to judge about this. Yes. Uh, but to me it was. First of all, the fact to, uh, touch these topics, this transformation and to, uh, go through some tools to, um, highlight the fact that, uh, transformation or change is not a threat, but it is an opportunity.
And being able to discuss this with the teachers, but especially with colleagues from all over the world. Because in my cohort we had people from Europe, but also from Australia, Philippine, Thailand, Indonesia. So it was really great to learn, uh, different angles for the same maybe challenge that we see.
And how different people take on this using the tools that, uh, we learned during the, the path. So to me it was very good also in learning, um, different cultures. Yeah. And again, listening.
Phil: That was for
Ivano: me, the main learn.
Phil: Yeah. It is interesting, uh, you should say that. And I think your cohort, which, uh, came through the pandemic period as well, Ivano, wasn't it?
It meant that you didn't have the same opportunity to, you know, sort of physically get together in a face-to-face situation. And I think that, uh. You know, still, and in spite of that still, you know, working in a re remote learning environment, in spite of that, you're still able to get a huge amount of benefit from being together with those international colleagues.
Yeah. And it was fantastic, wasn't it? A graduation to, yeah, yeah, yeah. See, so many of you coming together, was it the first time? Probably, um, apart from coaching. The coaching module. Yeah.
Ivano: Yeah. With some of them was the first time, but it was like, you know, we knew each other for years, like their best friend and we also, that regardless our future, um Yeah.
Or, uh, the fact that the masters have finished now, but we have this connection that will save for life. Yeah. And, uh, good. Yeah, it's really great. Uh, great. Uh, yeah. Bunch of individuals. Very professional. So, and now we have friends all over the world. That's another very important aspect. Yeah.
Phil: Well, I think you've set a great example.
I mean, I think when you start, you know, since you started the Master's program, you've been promoted, haven't you, into your current position. Um, and I remember getting that email from you, you know, I think earlier this year, or was it the end of last year? You know, just, just saying. Just talking to us about the promotion, um, which is a, a huge step, you know, step up.
But so congratulations for that Ivano. I'm, you know, it is so lovely to hear. Um, but I, I think that. You know, people often say that one of the biggest, um, barriers to this kind of journey is the time it takes. Um, and in order to embark on the Masters, you need to, of course, support from your, um, from your work colleagues, you know, to sponsor the program.
I think amazing that SAP is providing the opportunity for people to do the Masters, um, but actually it's also family, isn't it? It's having, you know, an understanding wife and, and family and their role. And for, for us at graduation, just coming back to the graduation point is actually fantastic. You know, not just to celebrate the success with you, but also with the family that you had there.
So it's very nice meeting your family at the, uh, ceremony as well. Ivano. Uh, we really appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that brings us to the end. I don't know if there's any question I haven't asked you, Ivano, that you think is, is, is still relevant around the project? You did Any, any sort of key learnings or do you feel as though we've, we've covered, you know, the, the, the, the learning journey pretty well?
Ivano: Yeah, I think we, we covered quite exhaustive.
Phil: That's fantastic. Yeah. Um, well on that note, I think we could, uh, call it a day. Thank you so much. I'm sure we'll be in contact again, Ivano, and I'm really interested to hear more about the ongoing research that you're doing with your team and hope we can reconnect on that point, uh, to find out more about your, your kind of future learnings as well.
Ivano: Yeah, I will share the evolution of the document, of course.
Phil: Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant.