This week on The Sales Transformation Podcast Phil is joined by Brenda Henderson, in an episode many years in the making!
Brenda won Best Key Account Manager at the Women in Sales Awards back in 2021 and we’ve been trying to get her on the show ever since, but busy diaries, technology, and plain old life have conspired to get in the way until now!
In this episode she tells Phil what made her get into sales, the barriers women face in the industry, and how her work as a magistrate helps feed back into her sales career.
Highlights include:
- [02:18] – Leveraging transferrable skills to move into sales
- [11:33] – Winning a Women in Sales Award by showing purpose
- [21:29] – The shared values of a salesperson and a magistrate
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Connect with Brenda Henderson on LinkedIn
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Full episode transcript:
Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.
Phil: Brenda, finally, we're here. Welcome to welcome to the Sales Transformation Podcast.
Brenda: Thank you so much for having me, Phil. Um, amazing. Yeah. It's taken us a while to, to get, get us together, but yeah, um, I'm sure it'll be worth it.
Phil: I'm sure it'll be worth it.
We first came across you, I think, uh, with the Women in Sales Awards all those years ago, but we'll come onto that maybe a bit later. But I'm actually thrilled, uh, you're able to join us here. And, um, I just wonder before we start, whether we could, um, whether you could just talk to the listeners about your background and how you've come into this wonderful profession of sales.
Brenda: Yeah, no, absolutely. Yes. So, um, what can I say? I, I came, I, I sort of drifted into sales, which I think a lot of women that I've spoken to, certainly that work in my sector have, have set, you know, um, and, and across different industries as well. Um, I, as you know, I started my, my real career, if you like, at at Royal Mel many, many years ago now.
Yeah. Uh, and, um. The plan was that I was just gonna sort of stay there for, you know, three months, do a little bit of a, a stint during Christmas as a lot of people do, and just earn some money. You know, I was very young and yeah, just needed some cash in my pocket, you know, that's how I saw, saw it and, and my time there.
Um. I ended up staying for a lot longer. Um, and I worked in sort of like various different areas of the sort of like main, sort of melts into floor if you like, moving to delivery offices at some point. I worked night shifts at some point. Um, and then I decided that I needed to move into management, um, and um.
I then went through a program, uh, it's specifically designed by the company, um, to kind of move you into the sort of management area. And at the time, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I just knew that what I was doing wasn't what I wanted to do for my career, and I just obviously wanted to build a, a proper career for myself.
So I, I ended up moving into, and I think this was the most significant part. For my career where I moved into supporting sort of election hubs. Um, and I did a lot of watch project kind of work across those operations. And during that time I met a key account manager who worked for the business and, um, he had a famous actor's name, which I won't repeat now, but he, he was memorable to me because, um, he had a real flare about him and he talked about his customers with such passion.
And these were like, you know, local authorities and so on. And he really. He sold me a dream about being in this profession without even realizing it. It was just his passion for his customers and, and what he did. He loved what he did, and I. Went on many customer client meetings with him internally and externally and watched in awe as he really did.
Um, his, his his job. Yeah, his job, you know, which was about building relationships. Yeah. And. Whether that was internal stakeholders or external clients, building those relationships and providing those clients with an outcome that was beneficial to both the business and for them. And I just loved it. I just fell in love with it.
Um, and when an opportunity for myself came up, um, several years later to what I then saw as my dream job. I just went for it. I just, I just ran straight into, into that job and I remember going for an interview and them saying, well, have you got sales experience? And I'd worked, I'd done operations, so I did lots of operational jobs where I was speaking to, um, internal and external stakeholders, um, around sort of like.
It would've been what you would've said, key account management, but it wasn't quite key account management. Um, and so I just used that. I leveraged those types of skills to be able to land myself with this amazing key account manager role. That I thought was gonna be everything that I'd ever dreamed it would be.
Um, and put me doing some of the things that I'd love to do, which is talking to people, building relationships. And uh, you know, I, I, I remember getting my first portfolio, uh, when I landed the job and. I just, I walked around for what, for at least six months in a, in a daze that I'd actually, I don't know if, I don't know if many people can, um, really say that they really push to be in a space.
Yeah. You know, they have an idealistic view of a space that they really want to be in and they land there, you know, and it was almost like, oh my God, I actually have done this now. Um, and so yeah, that's. That's really how I fell into sales. Right.
Phil: Okay. Yeah. Did it, did it, uh, going back to those early days, did it meet your expectations?
Was it everything that you had hoped it would be at that stage?
Brenda: Oh, I walked into it with very sort of dreamy, sort of, you know, rose tinted glasses that, um, you know, what I saw my colleague doing in those spaces was all of the, the nice things that come along with your sales role. But there is a, there is a part to that where it's very hard, it's very difficult.
Um, some of the conversations are not easy. Mm-hmm. And so, um, so yes, it met my expectations, but I quickly realized that there is a whole nother dimension to being in this sec in, in a sales profession that I hadn't really
Phil: Yeah.
Brenda: Set myself up for. Um. I don't think it deterred me. I think because of the things that I love about my role and the things that I love about being in sales, it really balances out some of the other things.
And yeah, I would say that it did, it met my expectations. It, it kind of, yeah. My whole career has been driven in that direction ever since, um, that first initial encounter with my colleague and looking at what he did in this space.
Phil: That's fantastic. So that was, that was where you got sort of started. So talk us through now.
I. What, what, what's happened since, 'cause of course you're not at raw mail now. Um, but, but yeah. Te tell us about your journey. 'cause it's been very impressive to, to see how your career has developed over the years.
Brenda: Yeah, no, thank you. I mean, um. As you know, I was with Raw Mill for 25 years. Yeah. I had this very good, solid career there and I'd worked across many different types of functions.
So I'd worked across operations, I'd worked in finance, I'd worked in marketing. I was saying, right, okay, I'm upfront in front of these customers here, but what else can I do to, to really drive business growth in this area and really champion my customer at the same time?
And so the marketing, I went, went away. I did a marketing qualification. I came back with this, right, okay, this is how you, this is how, 'cause marketing is almost like your. It's almost like a selling tool, you know? And so I really utilized that. And so I then went into the sort of marketing agency of Royal Mail where I stayed for about three to four years.
Um, and then, um, put my sales hat back on again. So I. I, I left in, um, 2014 and I remember, um, going into a very similar sort of account management role, um, sales role, um, with a marketing agency. Um, but I, I quickly realized that they, although they are very close and aligned, it wasn't quite the cells that I was used to.
It wasn't quite that at the front. The heart of the customer. You are the integral person that connects the customer to the product or to the company. Um, and, um, I wanted to be back in that space. Um, and I then, um, had realized that actually I wanted to actually find something that I could specialize in.
You know, so my, my sales knowledge, if you like, was very channeled down one route and I was like, I actually wanna specialize in something. And the payments industry for me really attracted me because it was something that was, I. Never gonna go away. Yeah. That's the first thing. Yeah. You know, with all of the growth around digitization, um, and the way that the world was moving in terms of payments and technology, I was interested, it piqued my interest and I was trying to look at ways that I could actually get myself into that space.
And I literally just used all of my transferable skills, you know? Yeah. And so I did a lot of, um, learning about the industry, um, using my transferable skills to sell in myself into that space.
Um, and eventually landed a role with a financial technology company. Um. We were international, so I was a representative, um, possibly of about 12 in the uk. Um, and I got to understand that industry inside out by leading on conversations with global acquirers. Um, and that really gave me that in-depth knowledge.
Mm. And also allows me to really push and drive my, my sales passion, you know? Yeah. Which was about taking those clients and. Driving innovation into them and landing some of those big deals. Um, and changings in some, in some instances, changing the way that they thought, the way that they did things. Um, so yeah, so that's how I sort of landed in the space initially.
And then I, in the last couple of years, obviously, I worked for one of the, um, UK's leading banks, and I. Um, really wanted, again, I think it's about challenging myself and my own knowledge and just wanting to expand. Um, yeah, my knowledge in the sector. So previously when I came into the payment sector, it's very channeled around the sort of international payments, you know, all around sort of dynamic currency conversion, multicurrency payments, that type of space.
And I really wanted to get a broader financial. Yeah. Um, understanding of the sector. And so I, I've, uh, I pushed myself, I squeezed myself. I sold what I can do, what I can bring to the table. Yeah. To, to the organization. And, and to be fair, I did have some, um, knowledge of.
The banking world and how it worked and how what I did could support how the bank operates and how they support their clients. And I felt that was just a space that I would really thrive in. And so that's where I've been now, uh, for the last two years.
Phil: Yeah, it's amazing because, uh, uh, obviously you're very determined when you set your.
You know, your, your heart on something. It sounds like you, you worked very hard to get that. Um, but I wonder whether you could talk about the women in Sales awards, 'cause you, you won, won that, that, and could you give the context a bit to winning and, and, and, and why you won it?
Brenda: Yeah, absolutely. So the Women in Sales Awards, um, this was a European award and I was, um.
I was nominated by my company at the time, the FinTech technology company yeah. Um, as somebody that they felt was doing great things in the space. Um, and they had nominated me and I was absolutely thrilled to be nominated. Part of the process was me for to, to really sort of, um, look inwardly and support my application.
By telling the company about what, what I, what I was doing, what makes me special, what makes me stand out from every other sales. Woman across Europe. Yeah. You know, in the key account management space. And um, I had to dig deep to do that. Yeah. And I think it really helped me to understand where my passion, um, lies.
And as you said, what, why I am driven and determined, um, to, to do certain things. And once I've set my mind on it that I'm. This is this, I'm gonna get the, the result that I want. Um, and so I think my, my application was really around. A combination of, um, my performance, um, Within the company, you know, so yes, I'm achieving results and, you know, I'm ticking those boxes.
Um, but also, um, around my purpose. And I think a lot of the purpose came out from this little girl who was eight years old in the playground and being told that you can't do this thing. And given, almost given a and the way that I described it was, it was a literal script that was taken from me and I described it as being, um, going through my career journey saying nobody will ever take a script from me again.
I will write my own script and I will play out. My own script and own it. And so I think I've always been determined that whatever I do in whatever space I go in, that I will make sure that I'm writing my own narrative. And I think that came out in my application. So I suppose there would be, there would, I think just under 500 applicants.
Um, and um, this was across. 28 countries. Um, I think something like 80 companies with some big players, um, in, in, in the sector, uh, and to come out and have won it, I think was because I brought that extra narrative to my story that says, this is where my passion lies. Because I think some of my. Journey and some of the challenges and barriers that I faced, that I talked about in my application was, and, and my presentation to them was, um, the very things that I think enables me to be a good salesperson.
Phil: Yeah.
Brenda: You know, so delivering commercial results is great. I think what can do that, we've got great women that can do that, but staying focused on strategic relationships, absolutely. Um, championing change, you know, which I think I've been doing since, since the late eighties without giving too much away about my age.
Um, yeah. And yeah, and challenging as well, what great leadership looks like, and talking also about what I do. In work, but outside in the community. And I, I was absolutely thrilled to have won that award.
Phil: No, it's a, it's a great award that one, because if we look at the, um, sort of sales community, certainly when I started, uh, there weren't that many women in sales and there weren't that many black women in sales, I have to say as well.
So, um, and, uh, yes, some of the best salespeople I've met have been women. You know, you know, they, but, but when you start to look. Further up the ladder of management and leadership and so on. You know, there're not that many, there're not enough in my view. Um, yeah, women in very senior sort of sales leadership roles.
Um. Have you come across a lot of bias at all in in, in your, you know, in, in your journey? Have you, have you felt that you had to work sort of tripoli hard to get to where you've got to because of the environment or the sector that you've been working in? Because Yeah, technology is, is is again, quite male, male dominated, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah.
Brenda: No, absolutely. I think there's several sort of, um, I. Sort of barriers that you face and Yeah, absolutely. Being in a male dominated environment definitely is one. Um, I think that there are, um. Significant barriers in terms of lack of visibility, as you say, for women in sort of top sales roles?
Yeah, and without sort of role models, it can be really, it can be harder for women to, to kind of see a clear path of leadership, which obviously impacts ambition and sort of retention over time. Um, and there are some real sort of stereotypes as well about, um, you know, the, how, what's associated with a successful leader.
And traditional sort of masculine traits, you know, being aggressive and maybe overly competitive. And I think, um, that, that sometimes can undervalue, um, the sort of a collaborative or maybe empathetic or, or even consultative selling styles that many women bring to the table. So I think, yeah, there definitely are.
There definitely are barriers, um, that, that you face in that space. And look, I think it, it takes strong women and I've met some amazing women, especially in this, in the women in sales.
Phil: Yeah, yeah.
Brenda: Um, world. Um, but yeah, it's um. I, I think as well there is the, there is the idea that, uh, work life balance and yeah, is difficult for women and, and that there, that might be just an unconscious bias, certainly in today's world.
Yeah. But in some cases, like assumptions really are made about family commitments. Your flexibility, you know, might need to fewer advancements or opportunities. Um, and I think sometimes even when. Even when you have like formal policies, uh, and, and they might not restrict growth, that these biases sometimes can just subtly kind of.
Find their way of Yeah. Compounding those, the effect of that over time. Yeah. Um, so, so yeah, they, they, there definitely is, um, uh, uh, barriers to, to being in this space. But I think that as women, you know, we are pushing heavily. Yeah. Now in the, in the sort of gen, definitely in the gender space. I think there still is a, still a lack of, um.
Black female leadership in the sales space. And I often, um, find myself as being the only black female In the room. Uh, and I think there's, there, there's so much more to be done in, in, in that space so much more. Yeah. Um, but yeah,
Phil: it's interesting that, you know, I've, I've wanted my, 'cause we see it at the, at the front end of course we have the level six undergraduate program.
So we're seeing. People, um, coming in at school leavers now, you know, sort of in, in, into sales and. I, I would say we are seeing more now than we did. It's, it, it, it is great. I think there's, the apprenticeship program is, is sort of encouraging more sort of social mobility, uh, which is one of the aims of the government to try and get that through, through, through level six.
Yeah. Um, but I agree, I think still more needs to, you know, needs to be done. Uh, and I, I think you're one of very few, uh. Uh, sales leaders, I would say, who are both female and black. So it's, it is, you know, it's really nice to have you here with us to, to talk about it, but. Uh, it doesn't surprise me that you've done so well given a lot of the things that you've been saying, but I, I'd, I'd love you to share some of the things you do outside of work because, um, that also is incredibly impressive.
I. Um, so I wonder if you could share with the listeners, um, some of the things you do outside work, which I think we should. Yeah. Is, is, is great.
Brenda: Yeah. Oh, thank you. So yeah, I think the main, the main thing that I do, um, outside of my work is obviously that I am a magistrate.
Phil: Yeah. Um,
Brenda: and um, again, I'm very just very passionate about being in certain spaces where there may be a lack of representation.
Um, females. And, and, and black females and, and also, um. I just think that, you know, I, I mean, I do some other things in the community that supports, you know, young people, um, mentoring. Uh, but I think that this, this is a space that I'm very passionate about. So when I first, I became a magistrate 12 years ago now.
I think I might have mentioned to you on a, on a previous discussion that I do, I do have a law degree and I think, um, seeing something academically on, on paper is one thing, but when you are working in the space and you are seeing it come to life and you can make a difference and have an impact, it's, it's a completely different game changer.
And, um, I really think that my sales role, um, believe it or not. Really has an impact on mm-hmm. How I am able to navigate in this space and vice versa.
Phil: Yeah. Talk more about that. What makes a sales role sort of lend itself to being a magistrate?
Brenda: Yeah. Um, so look, as a magistrate, you've got to, you've got to be able to make very, sort of clear, fair, timely decisions, um, and. that ability To be able to. be able to Um, assess situations quickly and confidently, uh, directly supports what I do in sales and vice versa. So you need to understand what the client's needs are.
Everybody that walks through that courtroom is your client and you need to be able to respond decisively, you know, so there is the active listening and communication, you know? Yeah. I sitting as a magistrate, I'm. Honing in on those skills, you know? I'm, I'm learning to absorb the complex narratives, ask the right questions, uh, communicate the decisions with clarity, this is all my sales role, this is what I'm doing with my clients on a day-to-day basis, and I'm taking those skills and utilizing them in that courtroom setting.
You know? Um, the, the biggest one for me is around the integrity, the trust. Okay. You know, because. I'm a firm believer. I know we love this saying as salespeople, people buy people. And I totally agree with that. A hundred percent. People buy people, but you definitely feel you're not going to give me your 5 million pounds opportunity just because you like me.
Yeah. You know? Just because Brenda's a nice person to have a coffee with or have a chat with. No. The people part. The people buying people part is really about everything else that comes along with uh, creating what that person is, you know, so I, I have to have behind me. You have to trust my expertise.
You know, you have to trust my integrity. Yeah, you have to trust that I'm coming with your best interest at heart, that I have the right product or the right solution for you, and that is me as the, as the people, you know. So it isn't just that very, uh, surface level, oh, I really like this person, so I'm going to give them all of my business.
It doesn't really work like that. And I think for me, being a magistrate in a position of public trust, which requires real strong ethics and impartiality. In sales, these qualities, that that's what helps you to build longer term relationships. It's based on your credibility, your integrity, so, uh, everything that I do even around conflict of, in, of, um, I. Resolution. All of that all lies with sales. You know, you, you, you're navigating objections, you're solving problems, you know, and the judiciary experience has kind of taught me how to manage conflict constructively, you know, and to listen without bias or guide conversations towards resolutions.
And yeah, they're just valuable skills that. You need when handling negotiations or complex customer concerns. So definitely the two are married together. Um, and I definitely lean in on my sales from both aspects. Yeah, so look for me, my sales, my sales profession is something that I use on a daily basis, whether I'm at work or not.
Phil: Yeah, no, it's great. Um, and you do the magistrate's work in, in addition to your, your, your normal day job. How much time, how, you know, for those that don't understand how it works, because a lot of people don't quite know what's involved in being a magistrate, and there may be people listening would actually think, actually it would be quite good to do.
You know, to become one. I, I know I have a few friends who've done it. Uh, could you just talk us through how it works from a time point of view and, and, um, how do you balance both sort of work and being administrator and family and friends, for example? How do you manage all that?
Brenda: I think the first, the first thing I always would say when people ask me that is that if you really want to do something, you find time for it.
Phil: Yeah.
Brenda: You know, so there's a real, there, there, there has to be a passion behind wanting to do something. Yeah. 'cause if you are just trying to add something else to your list of things that you have under your belt, then you're kind of squeezing it into a space and then it becomes problematic and it's like, oh, okay, this is, this is becoming a problem for me.
Mm-hmm. The minute it becomes a problem for you, it means that the passion out of wanting to do it has, has gone.
But I would say to anybody who was thinking about it, to, to, to look into it, it is a very rewarding. Um, thing to do for your community in terms of giving something back to the community. Um, but also you get so much from it, you know? Um, I, I. We'll do this until they say, stop doing it now. That's, its great.
Your time is done. Yeah. Uh, which I think is at 75, so have lot time left. Yes.
Phil: Yes. Um, so how do you see your future, Brent, you know, what's, what's next for you? What, what other challenges? What other mountains are you going to climb?
Brenda: Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a question you see. So for me, um. I'm always, I've always got my eye on the next thing,
Phil: right.
Brenda: And, uh. I like to be in a space where I've learned and absorbed everything that I need to do in order to enable me to move on to the next stage. I feel like where I am now, I am still in that absorbing learning. I'm still being curious. Um, and so the next stage for me is to obviously enhance on where I am currently.
Um, and then look at where. This, my new skills and everything else I've learned in this space is gonna land me next. Yeah. So, um, I, I haven't got something that I can say yet. In six months time, I'm hoping that I'm going to be doing this particular role, or I'm gonna be working in this particular sector.
But I can assure you over the next six months, I will be working hard to, yeah. To ensure that I am fully. Um, fulfilled in the space that I'm currently in. Yeah. And then that will then lead me into the next direction because I've been in this space now for two years and it's, um, it's been a steep learning curve and, um, I'm still absorbing and learning and there is so much to learn.
There's that, I'm. Currently I manage the sort of like services and public sector. Um, so that's looking at sort of like government, charities, higher education, I'm now moving into different sectors and areas that will, uh, require new learning, you know, so.
Okay. That's, yeah, so that's, that's really interesting. Um. For me. Um, and it just keeps the brain ticking over. Yeah. Yeah.
Phil: That's, um, no, that's really wonderful. Um, if you were to, um, go back to your younger you, um, is there any advice you might give your younger you? Um, my young, my younger me. Yeah. With, yeah, with, with the experience now of.
Having achieved what you've achieved or done what you've done. Is there any, is there anything that you might have said to yourself in those early days that perhaps you've learned from experience on.
Brenda: Yeah, I think, God, there's so much. If I could have sat down to that 8-year-old little girl in the playground, um, holding onto her little script for dear life, um, and, uh, I, there there's probably so much that I would've, would, I would've said.
Um, but in terms of my career, you know, in that start of my journey, yeah, I, I'd say things like my, my background is not a barrier.
Phil: Yeah. Yeah.
Brenda: You know, um, there were times when I felt like I didn't belong, um, and I would, would remind myself that my lived in experience is actually a competitive advantage, you know?
And authenticity. Yeah. That's what people connect with. Yeah. So that's definitely something I would've, I would say to my younger self. I'd also probably say something like, you know, take risks, you know? Okay. You don't have to be 100% ready. Yeah. And, and growth really comes with stretch. So I would tell myself to trust myself.
Phil: Yeah.
Brenda: A little bit more. Um. And it it specifically to my sales role, I suppose I'd say something like sales is not just about, um, having all of the answers. It's, it's, it's about asking the right questions. It's, it's about learning, it's about staying curious, as I've said. Yeah. Um, I feel, I feel like my sales profession is a great profession, um, for me personally and professionally for my own growth.
Um. But You have to be prepared to grow with it. And I think those are the things that I would've told myself right at the beginning of my career that probably made it a little bit easier for me.
Phil: Yeah.
Brenda: Yeah.
Phil: Well, I mean, clearly you've done many, you know, sort of many. Of many great things in the right way. So I mean, it's uh, you know, sort of looking at what you've achieved over the years and I must say we, you know, we, our paths have crossed at I guess GST really, isn't it, you know, the global sales transformation events.
That's where we've sort of met and you've been a sort of regular attendee, which has been great to see. So you obviously get quite stimulated by the environment that we have, which is quite special, aren't they? There's, it
Brenda: is. It is those
Phil: events. Yeah. Yeah.
Brenda: Those, those, those events. Um, they are, um, something that I have marked on my calendar.
Um, yeah, yearly. They're, they're events that I won't miss because, um, I'm in a space with people that are like-minded, but I'm also in a space where I'm understanding what the growth in the market is, what the growth is in my industry, um, what, what other people are doing and saying and so on. And I suppose there's a real.
Buzz and excitement around people that are in sales. Yeah. You know, we, we have a certain type of energy and Yeah. Um, it's great to be in that space around people that are, you know, in the, in, in the, with the same mindset. Um, and it's great to see. Younger people, as you've said, you know, um, coming onto coming onto the, um, to the program, you know, and being inspired by some of the people that are currently in the space, you know?
Yeah. So, yeah, it's always something that's gonna be on my calendar.
Phil: That's, that's great. No, we're, we're really looking forward to. The next event, which is on the 27th of November. I see that you've already, uh, but your space on that, which is great. Um, yeah, we're, we're really excited by this for, for a number of reasons.
One, it's, it's our 20th and you know, if you would've asked me when we first started, would we still be doing it, uh, 20 years later? I don't think I, I dunno how I would've answered. I probably would've said, I hope so, but I don't know. You know, and I, I remember in those early days when we start, you know, we talk a lot about professionalizing sales, as you know.
Um, and. I, I, I, you know, so I, I remember that, you know, the events were co-sponsored with Middlesex University, and, you know, if we, if we had one person in the room that had been through an academic program, well that would've been about normal. But now it's, it's just incredible to see.
Brenda: Amazing. Yeah. You know, the
Phil: journey that's taken place and the quality of the debate.
Um, just seeing the confidence that people have when they start sharing their research and and so on. Yeah. It's, it is obviously it's a calendar highlight for us and it, it's something that, um, yeah, so it's 20 years now, so it's gonna be a big celebration this time. Yeah. And uh, yeah, we're, we're looking at AI and the human connection.
Yes. Uh, and I think a lot, a lot of people are really. Challenged by this whole AI concept. It seems that it's so transformational. But, um, but equally I think, uh, you know, people are beginning to understand some of the limitations of ai. And, you know, it's, uh. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we're gonna have a really, really great event.
Um, I'm
Brenda: looking forward to
Phil: that discussion. Yeah. So, so yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing you there as well. But, um, Brenda, we've tried to, I dunno how many years we've tried to get you onto the sales transformation podcast, but we did. We did. We personally made it happen, and I just can't thank you enough for, for taking part.
It's been brilliant. Oh.
Brenda: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's been, it's been amazing, as you say, we've tried to do it so many times, but I think now was the right time, Kelly. Now
Phil: was the right time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But, uh,
Brenda: thank you. Happy, congratulations on that.
Phil: I'm sure you're going to be an inspiration for many, many people here.
Uh, gonna be dialing in and listening, so yeah. Thank you very much. Thanks so
Brenda: much, Billy. All right. Thank you, Brenda. Take care. Speak soon. Bye-bye. Speak
Phil: soon. Bye-bye.