We have another Mastercast episode for you this week on The Sales Transformation Podcast as Phil speaks to Rajesh Patil from Adobe.
Rajesh’s Master’s dissertation explored leadership from an unusual point of view: that of mindfulness and spirituality. He explains how meditation and texts like the Bhagavad Gita have guided his leadership style, and the practical outcomes that this approach has had for his team.
Highlights include:
- [05:45] – Thinking about the “human angle” in leadership
- [24:52] – “The purpose of life is to remember what needs to be remembered.”
- [39:23] – Three useful questions for feedback on your leadership
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Connect with Rajesh Patil on LinkedIn
Join the discussion in our Sales Transformation Forum group.
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Full episode transcript:
Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.
Phil: Right. Um, well, uh, Rajesh, it's a, a, a huge welcome to the Sales Transformation Podcast series. Uh, thank you so much for enjoying us. Um, just for the benefit of the listener, this is a Mastercast series, so this is where we interview students who've been through the master's program, uh, to talk through their final projects.
So Rajesh, thank you. Welcome.
Rajesh: Thank you. Thank you, Phil. Thank you so much. I was so looking forward to having this chat with you. Uh, and thank you for having me. It's, uh, it's really a pleasure and an honor to speak to you about, uh, about sales on this podcast.
Phil: It's, uh, it's our, honestly, it's our, it's our, uh, honor to have you here, Rajesh.
I'm looking forward to the, the podcast 'cause I think the topic that we have for your final project is really interesting. But before we get started, Rajesh, do you mind just share, sharing with the listener a little bit about who you are and what your current role is and, uh. How you, uh, also, if you don't mind just saying sort of what made you decide to embark on the Master's program in the first instance?
Rajesh: Absolutely, absolutely would love to. So I manage the territory and channel sales for Adobe in Southeast Asia. I'm based here in Singapore. Uh, and, uh, been in this role for the last seven years now. Uh. I haven't been into sales since the beginning of my career, uh, which, which started way back. Uh, I've been 20 years with Adobe though.
And, uh, I have managed the solution consulting team. We used to call it the pre-sales, and that was, there was sales in it and absolutely convincing the customer about, uh. Why our technology is better and what would solve their customer, their challenges. And that is, that is where it all started. Uh, moving to Singapore, uh, gave me a bit of an idea of what markets are outside of India.
So I managed the solution consulting team higher and managed the solution consulting team in India for 10 years. And then moved into Singapore, uh, with an opportunity to become a solution consultant once again in 2014. Uh. As you do know, you've lived in Singapore, so you know, it's a very expensive place.
And, uh, uh, looking at what I was doing with solution consulting, I, I decided that I needed to make more money and, uh, that is the reason. Moved from a pre-sales kind of a situation. Into sales, and that is, I put my hand up for a territory role. And, uh, thankfully it was available and my managing director then was, uh, pretty open and, uh, said, oh, why not give it, give it a shot.
So that's where my sales role began. Uh, I did right. Reasonably, I would say, and, uh, uh, was offered, uh, in three years time was offered, uh, to manage the sales team. Uh, since I have managed teams before, it was, uh, I didn't, uh, blink an eye. I said yes. And, uh, moved into this particular role. Now coming to this particular master's program, uh, I, a few years ago, we had, uh, Simon Dale join us as our, uh.
Uh, managing director for Southeast Asia and Simon's ideas and thoughts about people management, about the business, about how he thought of, uh, the overall business, the small projects that he created, and those things were really eye-opening for me as a leader, and I simply loved the way he managed things so.
He did bring up a few times that he has done this sales transformation Masters and which was, which was really something that we ended up speaking a few times. He shared how his interest was spiked with. Coaching and how he enjoyed it. And I had the, I had the privilege of, uh, being coached by him, uh, on specific areas like, uh, managing difficult employees and stuff like that, which was wonderful.
And that was, that was something that. Inspired me quite a bit. Uh, so when this opportunity came up and, uh, he said, oh, if you are interested, would you like to embark on this journey, which is two and a half years. Uh, it's an investment of your time, but, uh, then you would, you would learn a lot as well, and.
That's, I I honestly, that was, there was only one day that I took to think about it because I went back home and just had a chat with, uh, my wife to understand, uh, if she was, she was keen, uh, to support me as well because it, it was, uh, investment in time. Uh, but, uh, yeah, and I just, I just said yes, and that's, that, that's how, that's how that weekend we got talking, Phil.
Phil: Yeah, I know. It was, it all happened very quickly and, uh, I think, uh, you joined a, a fabulous cohort of people from, well, it was, you know, from USA, from the uk. And, uh, here you are now having graduated and to talk about your final project. And I'm just going to read out the title of your Yes. If you don't mind for the listeners.
So, Rajesh title is, how does my mindfulness awareness and spiritual practice influence my leadership style and the overall performance of my sales team? And to my knowledge, um, this project is quite unique, uh, given, you know, the title and, uh. And also the way your research took you, um, was, was, was not, if you like, the sort of traditional approach necessarily that we've seen with other students.
I mean, your research methodology is traditional, but the topics, the books, the things you looked at were different. So Rajesh, um. Talk us through what was your concern that led to this title, um, and uh, and, you know, sort of why was it, you know, not, not just the what, but the why. Was it a concern for you to address this particular question?
I.
Rajesh: So Phil, um, uh, it is, it is a unique topic. I understand, but, uh, it, I I was not, it is, it is surprisingly not that unique as well. When I, when I started, started going through, going through papers and I started looking at formal research, there were a lot, many people who had taught and done a research around what happens if at all, you meditate or what happens.
To your leadership style when you are a spiritual person or you, you are a person who's taking the human angle into consideration. I have always, uh, felt that I am a people manager first, uh, processes do, uh, appeal to me, but. One has to understand that the processes are completed by those people. And, uh, my people's motivation, my, my team's, um, development, their, uh, overall commitment and their wellbeing are of a prime importance to me.
So if you speak to any of my teammates, those probably are a couple of things that. Yeah, that they would come up with. Uh, this was from a people perspective. The other side was from a leadership side. I, I have always believed that. One needs to be motivated themselves. I cannot be in a command and control situation, I have seen managers do that, and I have felt uncomfortable myself, and I've, I've thought that that is something that I would never do with my team. So that is the reason I, I have started. Probably 15 odd years ago, I started on this journey of meditation. I started to understand myself to become a bit more self-aware.
Uh, and it's a, it's a, it's, it's not that easy obviously. It is lovely to say that, oh, meditation, and I've been doing it for 15 years. Uh, I still sit on my, uh, uh, pillow today and feel like. It's the first time I'm doing it. Uh, but that is, that is what, that's the, that's probably precisely the reason. It is called a practice as well.
Uh, so, you know, don't reach anywhere. But then what I've understood over the years is it has given me a lot more peace and calm when I listen to people. When I speak with people, I, I'm a very. Ferocious orator, right? I love getting into speaking all the time and, and coming from Mumbai, uh, making, trying to make a mark in a crowded place.
Uh. Making myself heard, uh, I had to be loud and proud about things. Otherwise I wouldn't have done what I, what I have done. And that is what I understood when I started doing my research that the way I am, what has shaped me is this particular thing that coming from my,
Phil: yeah. From your past. So do you mind just telling us a bit about your past then?
Sure.
Rajesh: Uh, I, um. I come from Mumbai. I have, uh, lived, uh, most of my life, uh, in suburbs of Mumbai, in Tani, which is, uh, much further away than, uh, what, uh, people would know of as Mumbai and, uh. Traveling to college, uh, used to take two hours, uh, for me to go. I, uh, so my school was in, but my college was in Mumbai and traveling one side would take me two hours to reach my college.
I was doing my, uh, diploma in printing technology. That is what I did, and I was happy about, uh, learning about cameras. Uh, happy to learn about the processing, uh, of film and, uh, understanding what their entire printing process. Looked like. So that is what my college was. But again, that is what it is, that if I am catching the 7 47 train only, then I would reach for my 9 45 lecture in time.
And it is 7 47. It is not 7 48. It is not seven 50. It is 7 47. So, so you gotta, you got, since young days you are, you are trying to be. By the minute you are, you are there trying to get the train because if you miss one, the second one is gonna be like 10, 15 minutes later. And it might not even be a fast train, it might be a slow train and those kind of things.
So, so walking fast, being quick, uh, getting inside the train before the train stops. Uh, trying to find a seat as much as quickly as possible. Uh, and then. Going through the journey safely, uh, for that one hour, one hour, 45 minutes. And then, uh, the 10 minutes walk to the college, uh, was important. And I'm, I'm sharing this very precisely with you because when I started on this project, I was looking back and seeing what, why do I, even in Singapore today where I don't need to catch a train.
There is a train every three minutes. Yeah. I don't need to see what time the train is, but. I still walk at the same speed. My colleagues still look at me and say, oh, radish must be at the immigration already. You don't need to bother that. He'll, he'll just, we'll, we'll just catch him at the dinner later.
Right? So that's how fast I walk and that is how my wife and son look at me as well, that he's always doing these things. So that's the past. That is where I started, uh, got into printing technology, got in, worked with. Really good publishing houses like Magna Publishing, which was, uh, which, uh, did uh, 90% of publishing of Indian magazines.
Right. I worked with, uh, gray Worldwide, the advertising agency before that. And, uh, yeah, and when I was working through these agencies and these publishing houses is where I came across Adobe and I said, wow, this is, so, this is a software, uh, that I love, uh, and maybe it would be a dream to get a job in Adobe.
And that's, that's how I, I applied. And that was two, 2004 when I, when I got into Adobe. That seems like a long time ago now.
Phil: So you're pitching, you've. A picture that's being formed of someone that is moving very fast, very quick, you know, is sort of, I dunno whether this is the right word, sort of rushing from one thing to another, you know?
But moving really fast. Very intense. And so you've chosen the topic, which is about. You know, looking at mindfulness and meditation, obviously there was something that you felt that you wanted to address as a means of developing your personal practice. And I think that quite a lot of that was also influenced by, um.
The, some of your beliefs perhaps, uh, built from, you know, sort of around religious beliefs as well, and attitudes that could have been influenced by your parents or your upbringing. So I wonder if you could share a little bit about that context of your life as well, because I think you draw upon that quite a lot in your final project.
Absolutely.
Rajesh: Absolutely, Phil. So, so I, I, I think, um, uh, coming, coming from, coming from being, being this fast and, you know, this quick and, you know, this hasty, I would say, uh, most of the time I've always felt that I am not a very good listener. Okay. And this is, this is something that, that probably drew me towards.
Meditation. My friend who introduced me to meditation gave me power of now les's book, uh, which, which actually made me understand what exactly is present, what exactly is the now the power of now. But, but that's, that's, that was an introduction. But, uh, growing up, growing up in a Hindu, uh, Braman household, uh.
Prayers come naturally. Uh, there is, there is always some festival or something going on and you are offering gratitude towards God, towards, um, you know, the nature and towards animals. And it is, it is a, it is a system, but. That did not really attract me too much, and I drop on this from a religion versus a spirituality perspective.
That, yeah, for me, spirituality mattered a bit more when I started learning from meditation and then moving on where AKA Tole, who's a German, uh, yeah, uh, person who's, who's, who's actually. Really talking about all the people, the great sages and Sears that have gone through in India made me start reading more about Indian philosophy, often ata, which is about non-dualism and why we are one.
I am, that is what, what AA Verta says, which is, uh, you are the super consciousness and uh, like we are looking at, uh. Any kind of, uh, uh, philosophies today when, where people are looking at, oh, oh, that's God, and that's the form of God because that is the statue that everybody's looking and praying at. The, a philosophy is trying to say that everything is according to what I see it, and the the smallest piece is actually here inside of me.
And that is what, so that really. Attracted me quite a lot because it was, it was telling me that he, it is not Phil and Rajesh speaking. It is the same consciousness. You have the same particle that I have in me, and we both are exactly the same. But because we are playing these roles, here I am speaking and you are listening and you are speaking, and I am listening.
So that's, that's what spirituality, uh, in Ata Veta speaks about, and that that does a lot, many things. To all the positive, uh, mindsets that you speak about, Phil, in your book as well, when we are talking about authenticity, when we are talking about customer centricity and when we are talking, I was talking about listening.
It's all about that, that you as a person, I'm not considering you as a separate then, right? Because we are part of this whole single consciousness and the bigger consciousness, and that's the reason I need to be. Compassionate. I need to be listening to you. I need to be worrying about what you are going through as well.
And that, that is particularly the thing that came through from spirituality. And that is the reason I, I make it a bit more separate from religion because it is nothing to do with, with, with, with what kind of belief systems you have. But spirituality for me is more about. Being that human with another human.
And if, if I'm curious, if I'm kind, if I'm compassionate, and that is to every human being. So it is not just my family or my team, but even to my customer, yeah. it will ensure that the customer reciprocates in the same way, the person in front of you reciprocates in the same way. So that's, that's. Probably the place that I wanted to go forward with my research because of this.
Uh, yeah. And, and how, how my team gets impacted by it.
Phil: Yeah. I mean, what I think so interesting is, is first of all, um, if you look at the context of sales and the world we live in today, it's so fast moving and, and so, uh, and so intense and there's so much pressure around that. What you're talking about here, this, this idea of sense of presence, and I think we'll go into some of your research in more detail later on, but you sort of also, you know, you can connect it to um, anxiety and your sort of mental state as well.
There's a lot of people that I've been interviewing, for example, in very senior sales leadership roles. Who do suffer, suffer, you know, from high levels of anxiety and, uh, and probably have not yet, you know, sort of embraced this, this, this sense of, of, uh, spirituality in the sense you're now des describing it.
So I think the topic is, is, is really interesting. Um, and I wonder whether you can share, you know, when you were starting to get into the topic and you're starting to sort of read more about it, you've mentioned a few of the books already, Rajesh, but what, what were some of the big, um, literature kind of books did you read that you think had the biggest impact on the direction that your, your action research then took you in?
Rajesh: So I think, uh, Phil, uh, absolutely. Power of Now was one of the, one of the ones, one of the first ones that was, that was, that was given to me by, by a friend, and I moved into that. But I think the, the biggest one that really influenced me a lot is the Bhagavad Gita. Now, the Bhagavad Gita is a, is a, uh, part of. The two epic, uh, mythologies in Hindu religion is the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. In the Mahabharata, where
there is a, there is a battle that is about to begin between the Kauravas and the Pandavas. You can say the good people and the bad and what, what, what kind of, what kind of, uh, thoughts are going through with the Prime Warrior for the Pandavas. That is when Bhagavad Gita is told by Krishna to Arjuna and what, what he mentions there is.
Actually path to live a day-to-day life. So he has mentioned a few paths, four paths actually. But then here, the Bhagavad Gita, there are a couple of things from the Bhagavad Gita that really stuck with me. One of them is, uh, Now, uh, this is in Sanskrit. Uh, if you translate it, it is more about. You keep doing your duties and don't worry about the fruits of your hard work or, you know, because they, they, they say that you continue to do your duties the way you are supposed to do, and the fruit of your hard work will come to you automatically.
Uh, it is not supposed to be result oriented. And it is, it is a contradiction in the role that I am, I cannot probably go into a boardroom and say this, but, uh, but, but the way, the way I, I connected this Phil, uh, from this particular one, I connected this with what we do in a sales team Yeah. Regularly.
Yeah. Is if you are doing your sales activities. In the cadence that you're supposed to do. You're doing your meetings, you are doing your calls, you are, uh, preparing for your call plan. You are making sure that you are, uh, speaking to the customer in the right, um, uh, uh, frame. You are ensuring that the customer's needs are kept.
Phil: Yeah,
Rajesh: in focus. Uh, I keep on telling this to my team that 29th August is a quarter end for you and me. 29th August does not mean anything to the customer. Yeah. Yeah. The customer. If, if I can sign it on the 5th of September, why not? I'll sign it on the 5th of September. So, but, but that is, that is where. Obviously outlook and forecasting will come into consideration, but what I'm, what I'm more keen on is, are you doing your activities clearly and regularly?
If you are doing that, you'll end up with a solid pipeline that can actually take you forward. And that's, uh, that's the. That's the key that I got from like that is how in my mind I connected what, uh, Bhagavad Gita was trying to say with this particular line and with, uh, and this is, this is something that has stuck with me all the time.
So even today, I feel as a leader, I am not too tense in the last couple of weeks of the quarter, but I'm more. Wanting to, uh, yes, my get to my team to say, are you doing the right things in the first seven, eight weeks of the quarter for us to just, you know, get through the last, the last couple of weeks.
So Bhagavad Gita really played an important role. Then, uh, there is one more book, uh, that I have mentioned in my dissertation as well called I Am that. Uh, uh, this is, again, I'm speaking about, uh, mythical figures here. I'm speaking about Sages and Sears here, but that's, that's something that, that really influenced me from a non non-dualism perspective.
A, we used to have, uh, Raj, we, he's, he's one of the, uh, uh, enlightened being who used to live in Mumbai. He passed away in 1981, so I can really, I, I, it feels like that was, that was when, uh, you know, I was still in school, but, but it feels real to me, like Bhagavad Gita and Lord Krishna probably a mythological figure or, or, or something.
Yeah, something that happened way back in the past. But Raj and his teachings feel a lot closer to me, and that's, that's where he has said. He says that the most important thing to remember, uh, the purpose of life is to remember what needs to be remembered. And what needs to be remembered is that what is the purpose?
What, what are you as a human being? What are you here? What, why are you here? What, what do you need to be doing? And it, it obviously does not. Connect in any ways with my sales role as such Yeah. But as a human being, when I think about these things and the privilege that we have, the society that we live in, the kind of, uh, privileged lifestyle that we have, what is my role towards the society?
And if I look at my role towards the society is more about giving. Because you have received so much that gratitude is not just gratitude by saying thank you or writing few lines before you go to sleep, but how can I give back to the society and when
Phil: I
Rajesh: believe in this particular purpose and I start thinking about myself as a human being who needs to do this?
My attitude towards my salespeople, my team changes tremendously
Phil: because
Rajesh: I feel, when I am so positive about what my purpose looks like, I need to understand what they feel. Yeah. How do they, how do they think about life? What is, what is it that motivates them? It is not wrong. If at all it is money or it is power, or it is fame or anything else, everybody will go through that entire cycle before one realizes what actually really makes them happy.
Phil: Yeah. Yeah.
Rajesh: And that's, that's probably, that's probably the thing that, that I felt very strongly about and. And, and it is again, a bit of curiosity as well, because when I want to be compassionate with somebody and if I want to understand the person who is sitting next to me as his story, I can't be talking all the time.
I need to be aware of when, what are they saying? What are the things or what are the signs that I can read? Even without them saying it, when do they let out a huge sigh and start speaking in a different tone? And that is, that is something that probably I, I learned. By listening to, uh, Oscar Trimboli and, uh, the Deep Listening Podcast.
Yes. Oh yeah. Brilliant podcast series,
Phil: isn't it? Yeah. I think you recommended this one to me on the very first module. Correct. And I remember you saying, have you heard about Oscar Trimboli? And I, I hadn't at the time, and I was very glad you did. 'cause I've listened to quite a few of his episodes. Yes. So, I mean, he takes listening.
To an absolutely amazing level. Correct. Um, something you, you've referred to some terminology, which I'm not sure our listeners would necessarily be familiar with. Sure. You talked about non-dualistic. Is that Yeah. Do you mind explaining what that term means to me? Sure.
Rajesh: And listener. So when I say non-dualistic, um, the, the, the philosophy, there are many philosophies in India.
When it comes to spirituality or when it comes to understanding this world. Okay? Now the philosophy, the philosophy of dualism would mean that I, as a human being, is separate then the God in the temple. So what would, what would that mean is that I need to pray to the Lord and I will be blessed. By them because I did such and such things.
Right. And that is separating the God and myself or I, I would, I would, I would probably not use God or Lord as the term because maybe there are people who would say maybe a supernatural being, maybe consciousness, uh, right. What, what there, there are, there are philosophies where they would term it as separate.
Right. So, but when it comes to non-dualism, non-dualism feels that there is one big. Consciousness. The whole thing is just consciousness and a part of that consciousness. So why am I speaking and why am I alive and breathing and doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing is because there is a part of that consciousness that is there that same consciousness.
Yeah. For a better terminology, I would say a God particle kind of that that particular particle is in me as well. Okay. So it's there out in the nature it is managing this and manifesting this entire beautiful world as we see it. But at the same time, it is there in me as well, and it's a very beautiful thing that.
I don't know if you've seen, I'm going, I'm going to, on a tangent, I do not know if you've seen the White Lotus recently, but in the White Lotus, it is based in Thailand, and the Thai monk has beautifully said this. When the, one of the, one of the actors asks him What is death? And he says, when you are born.
You are actually part of a wave. You are a droplet that is supposed to be a wave because you are born, you become separated from the wave, so you are still part of the wave. Okay? When you are living, you are still in that, right? Right. And when you die, you just go back into and become part of the ocean, the wave again.
And that is what is non-dualism. It is. You are the same thing. What you came from and you go back to the same thing. That is what, that's
Phil: what what's so interesting is when you start to sort of make the connections between spirituality and, and actually your role as a sales leader and you know, you've, you've alluded to coaching and listening.
Uh, you've also talked about leading and lagging indicators in the sense of being focused on the result, focused on the things that drive results. So, um, there's uh, a really interesting connection, I think, between the things that have inspired you from the books you've read and the literature of research and the topic of sales leadership.
Which, which I have to thank you for, because this is something quite new, I think, uh, in terms of how our students have started to look at literature. So you've had this interest, you've had this, uh, also self-reflection about you as a person that come through very strongly. Uh, tell us about the research you did.
What did, what did you do? Um, you know, how did you go about your research?
Rajesh: Sure. So, uh, my research was completely so I, I put, I put the project as for myself and what have I done differently? What, how, and, and I have always, I've always thought about it as a third person. Somebody who's looking at me acting, doing things on a day-to-day basis, attending meetings or conducting meetings, they would probably observe a lot, many things than what I would be able to, even though I'm trying to be as aware as possible.
I will have my own nuances, I'll have my own techniques and my habits, and that is the reason I went to my team and wanted to understand. What exactly do they think? So when, when I looked at my result, uh, so my research, I was looking at a couple of things. I, I had a questionnaire which was, uh, divided into couple of, uh, major topics.
One was communication in leadership. Yeah. Where I understood or wanted to understand how do they feel with. Or what, what the expectations while communicating. How was I listening? How was I making decisions? Was I fair in making decisions? Yeah, yeah. Uh, am I involving my teams in my decisions? And the other area was around supporting growth, constructive feedback and feedback.
Again, a two way street as to how I delivered feedback and how they were. Supported and um, uh, motivated to give feedback to me. Do I make ethical choices and do I lead with integrity? So that was the communication in leadership. And these were eight statements that I gave them. And they were to rank them on a Likert scale, uh, yeah, from one to five.
And then the second area was around mindfulness. Right. This was more around because this, this is from, from my perspective, I can always be very positive that yes, I was aware or I can be very, uh, critic critical of my own, uh, behavior. So I was looking at being present and attentive how I, how I manage stress, because that was key in every day.
Even though you have meditated and had a lovely session in the morning, a customers. Challenging question or a deal which was supposed to be closed in two hours is still getting delayed, and those things can go haywire or go horizontal anytime. Yeah. And then what? What was the awareness on the morale? Am I recognizing all the contributions that people are making?
Yeah. Am I encouraging some kind of purpose in them? Am I demonstrating compassion? Right. How, how am I managing or regulating my emotions in stressful situations? Yeah. And how am I handling conflict? So those were the two basic areas that I went through with, with my, with my team, and, uh. They are, they, they are 11 people.
Uh, they, they gave their feedback, and this was just on the Likert scale, but then I had open-ended questions, open-ended questions as to what have I done differently? Is there anything that they would like me to add to this? Yeah. How do they see, can, can they give me, uh, a particular constructive feedback on, on a particular thing that they do not like?
And I picked, so this was the second part. This was, there were the Likert scale, there were the open-ended answers. And then the last piece was I conducted interviews as well. I wanted to, so there were people who really had interesting, uh, responses. Yes. And I wanted to check what, what exactly is driving them, giving me that kind of a response.
And what, what exactly can they, can they share one particular instance or one particular. Yeah, example of the, of the behavior that they have seen. So that is what my research entailed Phil.
Phil: And was there any surprises, anything surface from that that, that you would say was sort of offered you new thinking or new perspectives?
So I.
Rajesh: I was very surprised with the positivity that people came back with. I must
Phil: admit they, they, they did. I mean, you come back as sort of in glowing terms, right, Josh? So you're obviously well respected, but I don't think you were happy with that. Were you? You wanted to go deeper?
Rajesh: Yeah. No. So because, because what, what I felt, so Phil, uh, we have to understand the cultural.
Situations. Yeah. Right. You know, we're, we're in, we're in Southeast Asia, we are in a, in Asia overall, I would say, uh, people are a lot more respectful, a lot more, uh, they, they, they would rather give you an ambiguous answer rather than say, uh, yeah, you better, you better pull up your socks on this one.
Phil: Right. Well we've had a few technical challenges here, Rajesh, but hopefully we'll be okay now. Absolute. So, uh, yeah, you were talking about the survey data that you got and Sure. You got, uh, we talk about the cultural, uh, sure. Effects of people giving you positive feedback and you wanted to go deeper, so perhaps you could expand a bit on what you did underneath the skin of some of the research that you were doing.
Rajesh: Exactly. Phil, so, so, you know it. As I was saying that, you know, in Asia you would, you would hardly have people come up to you and straight away say that, Hey, this is something, this is the place that you need to pull up your socks. But, uh, when, when I saw that kind of data, the, the, the. Really flowery data.
I felt, uh, oh, I need to, I need to really, uh, go deeper into a couple of, a couple of areas. And, uh, I think, I think there, there, there, this is, this is not just with the dissertation, but this is become my style since I've been with Southeast Asia and trying to understand how things work here. Yeah. I, rather than asking people.
What are the things that I want, you want me to improve upon? Or what are the things that you suggest I do? I ask people, what should I start doing? What is the one thing that you want me to stop doing, and what is that one thing that you want me to continue? So what that gives is that gives them. An opportunity to point to just one thing and because it is just one thing, they kind of open up a bit more as well.
Okay. So that is, that is something that I have used as a trick in all my check-ins when I do my check-ins with my team. But at the same time, during the dissertation as well, when I got into the interviews and wanted to go deep dive, there were two, uh, respondents who actually shared with me. What I needed to do, what was going on?
What is that one particular instance where I should have actually kept quiet in a customer meeting and allowed them to lead? So there were these things that came up, uh, which was very good and I liked it. There was one. Specific respondent and I've, I've shared a bit about that particular respondent on, on the, uh, paper as well is where they actually were unhappy about what was happening within the team, and a couple of decisions that were probably beyond their level, but they felt that those decisions came.
As a surprise to them. And that is the reason they responded very differently than what they would have generally responded. Yeah. To those, to those, to those questions. So, uh, because it was, uh, a negative marking in terms of, and there's their, their responses stood out, I felt. I really should understand what's going on there.
Going on.
Phil: Yeah. Okay. So, so you've got some deeper insights. So how do you feel it's made, you know, the, the whole journey and how's it made you, uh, now how has that help you develop your practice as a sales leader, would you say? What's changed?
Rajesh: So. I think, I think the, it is not just the dissertation, Phil, that I would say has changed things, but this whole journey, the master's journey, right from day one where we got into what is shaping me or what has getting me here, what has got me here since that particular question, the shields that we drew, yeah.
Has invited me to look at. My behaviors and my actions and the things that I read and the things that influence me very critically. Yeah. I also loved the idea of reflective writing, which we learned again in the first module, very just to understand, to think reflectively, to think critically, and write reflectively was.
Was, I think one of the changing points for me because it, it really helped me
become a bit more conscious. Remember of lot, many things throughout the day and right at the end of the day, write them down. Say what? Happened, why did that happen? And uh, then the gives reflective circle as to what will you do to probably ensure the next time these things don't happen. So that's, that's something that has created a circle for me.
Uh, the. The business, understanding the, or decoding the business as in, uh, understanding the code of business actually helped me understand getting into leading indicators, lagging, lagging indicators. And I'm very happy to share with you that I started, during this time I started project, my project was based on how can my partners really start creating pipeline.
And help me grow that. And I'm very happy to share with you, Phil, that that was module two. Since then, even today I have a program which runs I, I based it on the book four dx, the Four Disciplines of Execution. And I went through that and that that is still driving me. Upwards of $2 million worth of pipeline coming from partners, which I had no visibility on.
Maybe the partners never took it that seriously as well. But today with this particular framework that I have drawn, it is, it's now eight, about eight quarters that I'm running it successfully. Yeah, yeah. And I'm super happy and super thrilled that that's still going on. It has, it has taken a bit more.
Yeah. Twists and turns in the way I have, the way I, uh, nominate the winners, the way I, uh, solicitate the winners or the way I award the winners reward the winners has changed a bit, right? But overall, the program still remains the same. The biggest thing that actually came up as a surprise, I missed sharing with you in the, in the questionnaire.
One of the things that really caught my attention was. Somebody writing there, we would love you to answer us directly sometimes, rather than asking us a coaching question. And I remember still going back to the coaching, uh, module where I wanted to become this person where asking questions, asking coaching questions, asking open questions, asking options from the person who is bringing me the problem.
Should be my go-to persona. Yeah, yeah. And advising which, which, which is my strong point because of my tenure in Adobe and my experience and stuff like that. I wanted to put it on the backseat and Yeah, to, to some extent I feel I have achieved that, which is, which is really very pleasing. So taking this whole journey forward, I feel there are two more, two things that, that I continue to do very.
Diligently. One is coaching as to how I treat the team, how I have started taking pauses to say, you've got me this information. What do you want me to do with it? You want me to listen to it only or you want me to respond to it or. Have you thought of any other options that you would So, so that is a good question to start that conversation rather than they bringing me something and I straight away jumping in, oh, you know what you should do, and then getting there, which probably was making me a bottleneck in that, in that entire conversation because when I was the one that they were waiting for rather than.
Now me asking them and making them a lot more independent on how they act, uh, on, on the situations and the problems that they have. So yeah, those, those are a few things. Phil, I've, I, I really, uh, take back and, and continue to work strongly towards, uh, with, with my team.
Phil: You've opened it up to the other modules because you're right.
You know, module, you know the final dissertation is, is just one of seven projects you've done over the course of the two and a quarter years. You know, the fact you've gone back to module two, you know, the cracking the code, the coaching. I know coaching is such a, you know, it's a big thing for you, isn't it?
Sort of moving, moving forward. I think you want to continue with that. Um, so yeah, I've been, been fantastic, uh, sort of learnings and, uh. As I say, the, the language of your, um, research literature, the connection with spirituality, the terminology of dualism and non-dualism, these are at least for me, completely new concepts, Rajesh.
So I've learned a huge amount just from listening to you and reading your dissertation. And you know, you're right, India's got such a rich history, doesn't it? A philosophy. And so on. And, uh, yeah, I, I think we have an awful lot to learn
Rajesh: from it. Absolutely. Absolutely. I, I think, I think Phil, there, there, there are a couple of things, couple of books I actually mentioned because you mentioned India right now.
Yeah. There, there are a couple of, are a couple of books that, that, that I did go through was, uh, the 4,000 Weeks, uh, which, uh, really speaks about, uh, how. 4,000 weeks is actually 80 years. So the author has taken 80 years as a standard time for a person's li like a lifespan, a life. Yeah. And, and he is specifically talking about you want to become better at certain things.
You wanna become better at certain things, you lose sleep and you become like, an example is you are, you wanna become better at answering emails very quickly. You become so much better that you can answer emails very, very quickly. You know what happens? You don't get a zero inbox. You actually get more emails.
And, and he's speaking about this, about, uh, the, the National Highways in, in England as well. And he's talking about all sorts of things. But what he's trying to say basically is that we have to all remember that there is an endpoint to all these things. This race that we are in or this thing that we are behind there.
It, it might not be 4,000 weeks, it might be 6,000 weeks. It might be not 80 years, it might be a hundred years. But there is supposedly, and, and that's the truth. And, but but not, not in a gloom, doom kind of a way that, oh yes, everybody dies, but in a way that, am I really doing what I'm supposed to do? Am I really thinking about things?
Positively am I, does, does it matter that, that somebody said something and, and you are all that, you have all that thing going on in your mind, or you are angry about something or you are not very happy about something? Does that really matter? Two days later, five days later, maybe people don't even remember what they were upset about.
And that is, that is, again, coming back to slowing down. That is again, coming back to becoming more conscious and more human in our engagements, in our relationships and, and, uh, and trying to find that, uh, that, that thing that connects us. And that is, that is where the base is from, from a spiritual perspective as to as to where, where is this all going?
And you know, the Buddhist, actually the Tibetan monks and, uh, if, if somebody goes and learns, uh, meditation in Tibet, they are actually asked to meditate on death marity, they say, but they are meditate. They meditate on death as a real thing. You are supposed to. Sit quietly and think what would happen.
Yeah, you've gotta imagine that you are, you are, you are dead. And what would happen after that? The reason only is it's not about the doom and gloom as well, because we, we gotta accept the fact that yes, you are born, you will die. So it's, it's a, it's a. It's a span, it's a particular span of time, but what you do, and that reminds us to be that much more compassionate, that much more loving, that much more, uh, kind.
Yeah. Just, just, just being kind to people around you and that, that then automatically blossoms the thing, the things automatically blossom with your team. Be it with your customer, be it with your partners, uh, if you are kind to people around you. And that is what, uh, uh, Meng from, uh, Google, his book I, I i, I have spoken about is, is talking about having the intent.
Like if I'm getting on a call with Phil and I have an intent that Inten, I am intentional that I need to be very kind to Phil. And the moment that intent happens. A reciprocation of that intent happens from Phil, that Phil is also being kind to you. And it's, it's, it's a very human thing. It's, it's something which is automatic.
Don't.
Phil: Well that's wonderful. And that's a really positive note I think to end, uh, this wonderful, uh, conversation we've had. Ssh I've really enjoyed it. And, um, uh, thank you so much for taking part. Um, I don't know, hopefully you've enjoyed it as well, ssh to not
you motivate others to follow a similar line of inquiry. We shall see. Yeah. Absolutely. We have quite a few from India joining the program at the moment, uh, from one of our in-house cohorts at the moment. So it may be that uh, others will follow suit. We'll, we'll see. Um, but no, thank you and we'll be in touch soon, Rajesh.
And uh, thank you so much for taking part.
Rajesh: Thank you so much Phil. Thanks a lot for this opportunity and uh, really. I cannot thank you and the Consalia team enough for all the support and the guidance that we have gotten over the last couple of years. It's been a wonderful journey and I really encourage everybody who gets a chance to get onto this Master's program and, and, uh, they, I'm, I can assure them that they would learn many more things than they are actually doing in their day-to-day work today.
Yeah.
Phil: Well, thank you. Thanks. Thanks a lot, Phil.