This week on The Sales Transformation Podcast it’s Dr Grant Van Ulbrich’s turn to interview Phil in a conversation that originally appeared on Grant’s Scared So What Podcast!
Grant and Phil discuss leadership, coaching, and transformation within the sales industry, including the critical role of leadership in managing change. There’s also discussion of the importance of managing personal change when trying to change an organisation, which lies at the heart of Scared So What.
Highlights include:
- [09:04] – Does the situation choose the leader or does the leader choose the situation?
- [15:04] – Personal change is all about perception
- [22:50] – What’s the difference between change and transformation?
Connect with Philip Squire on LinkedIn
Connect with Grant Van Ulbrich on LinkedIn
You can find all the episodes of The Scared So What Podcast on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can find out more about Grant at www.drgrant.com, and learn about Scared So What at www.scaredsowhat.com.
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Full episode transcript:
Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.
George: Hi everyone. George here, the editor of the Sales Transformation Podcast. If you're a regular listener, you've probably come across friend of the show, Dr. Grant Van Ulrich before. He's been on the podcast a few times and has appeared at our annual GST events. If you don't know Grant, he's the creator of "scared so what" a change management methodology, which focuses on the need to manage personal change when undergoing organizational change. Dr. Grant actually came up with the idea for Scared So What, while studying for his masters with Consalia, and as you might have gathered, has since gone on to gain a doctorate at Middlesex as well.
As I mentioned earlier, Phil's interviewed him on the show before, but this week we're turning the tables and Grant is interviewing Phil for a change. That's because this interview originally aired on Grant's
Scared So What podcast? I'll put a link to the Scared, so what podcast in the show notes so you can go and check out all the other great conversations Grant has had about navigating personal change. And I'll also include some links to find out more about Scared so what as well as Dr. Grant Van Ulbrich himself.
Now I filled you in on the background. Please enjoy the episode.
Grant: Welcome to The Scared So What podcast? I'm your host, Dr. Grant Van Ulbrich. This is the show where we break through the fear of change and ask the question Scared So What? Each week we dive into personal change, management, coaching, and leadership for the future, giving you real world tools, insights, and stories to help you lead yourself.
And others through transformation. Whether you're navigating change in your life, your career, or your organization, this is your space to learn, to grow and to take bold action. So are you ready? Let's move from Fear to Forward.
Welcome to The Scared So What podcast show? This episode focuses on leadership and coaching. Within sales, we're joined with a very special guest, who is the founder and CEO of the Consalia Sales Business School, pioneering the professionalization of the sales career pathway through apprenticeships, undergraduate, graduate, and even doctoral programs in partnership with Middlesex University.
He's also the host of the Sales Transformation Podcast Show and an author of Selling Transformed, which is available on Amazon coming from the Greater London area. It's time to meet my professor and my mentor, Dr. Philip Squire. Dr. Squire, how are you today?
Phil: I'm very well, and it's, uh, very nice to, um, listen to your introduction, grant.
I can see that you've done this before. I, I think just a couple of times. Just a couple of times, but, uh, no. Well, it's,
Grant: I, you, you, you didn't think that you are teaching me in the Master's program and everything else that I wouldn't learn from you. Are you doing your own podcast show as well too?
Phil: Yeah, no, it's just uh, it's just, I'm sure also from your experience in the leisure industry and you know, the shipping that you will, you know your voice, you've got the voice of someone, uh, that presents very well, grant.
So, ah, bless.
Grant: I do remember my old days on the ships, uh, whether, whether it was the theater doing live talks with 2000 people or even cruise tv. Those are fun days. So it's actually kind of fun to actually be here again.
Phil: So here you are running your business show. Uh,
Grant: there we go. Well, I have to learn, be invited.
Thank you. I had to learn from the master as well too. But for all of our, our listeners on today's show. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what your exciting career and what made you decide to start a sales business school. That's so interesting.
Phil: Um, well, I've been in sales all my life and I think like many have fallen into sales accidentally and then joined a sales consulting company.
Uh. Started my own business when I was in my late twenties. So I, I, I guess I've been in yeah, the sales, sales field or, you know, for many, many years. Um, but the company went through a number of iterations and, and changes over the years. We formed Consalia in 2006 as a joint venture between a Spanish and Italian business.
And it was about that time I was also doing my doctorate. And it was through the doctorate really, that we began to make a subtle but quite profound shift, you know, into the sales education area. And it was in 2008 ish nine that we. Piloted our first master's programs with one of our clients, Hewlett Packard.
And based on the success of that and interest from other organizations with whom we worked, we then decided to create, uh, a fully fledged, if you like, uh, master's Pro executive Master's program for people like yourself. Grant who, who, who sort of joined and. Yeah. Then through the years with the apprenticeship programs in the uk it it, we had the opportunity to then add to the curriculum of programs with the undergraduate, but it was.
With the undergraduate BSE courses that we run. Yeah. So it was a bit by chance, uh, you know, that was, we emerged into this area, but it, it, it, it was not an instant shift, but I'm sure we'll talk about transformation later on. But it was a gradual, it was a gradual shift, but it's, uh, you know, as just so pleased we made the shift, you know, looking at what's now being created.
Grant: Oh, well, of course when you look back at everything you've done, but you're a doctorate. Doctor, can I unpack that just a little bit? You, you did some incredible global research on. If you have to help me with this, if I remember correctly, 'cause I was so focused on my studies, but I remember yours was on, you know, sales effectiveness.
Almost people do, they do, do people actually feel that salespeople are worthy of doing their jobs, et cetera. And there was a percentage that you found of salespeople that are truly effective at their jobs. Is that correct?
Phil: It is. Yeah. I mean, it's, again, it started off the, the doctorate started off a bit.
On the back of a research project with one of our clients, which was exploring how do our clients want to be sold to.
Grant: Yes, that's right.
Phil: And the purpose of that initial research was, um, to get examples of good and poor practice. And one of the questions that I sort of threw out, which, which happened, la I say later, it, it happened after the first interview actually, but it wasn't part of the interview at the beginning.
Mm-hmm. Was the question that, you know, having described good and and poor practice, what percentage of salespeople sell in a way you want And, and, and the first person said he felt 95% were a complete waste of time. Oh my God. Uh, and I thought, okay, maybe he's just one of those. You being flipped,
Grant: right?
Phil: Yeah, yeah.
And then I decided to ask the question of the next person, and he said less than 10%. And it was only three interviews to begin with, but it was enough to trigger, you know, uh, a question, which was that we need to explore this further. And that's when it then morphed into a fully fledged doctorate program.
And we are actually 15 years later revisiting. That same global research project. So we are interviewing people in Asia, in Europe, and Americas, um, using similar, uh, questioning approach with some contextual change to do with technology and so on. Mm-hmm. Um. And, uh, but asking that same question, what percent of salespeople sell in a way that you want?
So we want to see if the needle has changed in the last 15 years from a customer perspective. So we're very excited the research we're doing and
Grant: it's, it's so interesting that you say that. 'cause I remember. Being skeptical when I first learned that in the master's program. Um, oh yeah. You know, I thought, I thought, remember, I remember thinking, well within our own sales force, our global sales force, could that be true within hospitality?
Phil: Yeah.
Grant: And
I remember asking you, and you, and you actually tactfully, audaciously challenged us back and said, well, why don't you ask your customers and find out. And I remember we actually did a survey to engage, and we found out that less than 10% of our salespeople are actually effective at their jobs.
They were dumbfounded.
Phil: Yeah,
Grant: dumbfounded. Which, which led to the partnership of you.
Phil: Yeah.
Grant: Actually then teaching us, well, what do we need to do and what does break sales look like? Yeah. And how do we help people to transform to where people wanna be sold to. You know, that, that also drives me into what inspires you as well too, as to what you have done.
And, and, you know, you, you've championed so many people's lives around the world within the sales, uh, career pathway. But can you describe just a little bit what your leadership style is and what you believe to be important? So important that you teach it to your students, but also that you live within your own teams?
Phil: Yeah. You know, it's, it, it, it's, it's a, it's an interesting question and I, I, I remember, I, I was, um. Talking to a coach. I had a personal coach at one stage. Um, I think during the pandemic times there was someone who was getting an, an accreditation and she asked if she could coach me. So, and when, when I was involved in the coaching sessions and she was exploring, you know, you as a leader, uh, one of the areas that I was interested in.
Whereas the, the, the, this question is, does, does the situation choose the leader or, or does the leader choose the situation?
Grant: Interesting.
Phil: So, so what I mean by that is, yeah. Is that, you know, take someone like Winston Churchill, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, he was a great leader, you know, during wartime, but he was a very poor leader during peace time.
Yeah.
Grant: Interesting. Yeah, so the
Phil: situation that he, he found himself in now, he couldn't have chosen a better prime minister during the war, but he, he simply was not regarded in the same way when he was reelected during peace time. And, and I've been reflecting as well a bit on, when you talked to me about leadership and my leadership approach is, is.
Is it it? To what extent is Consalia sort of, you know, what leader does Consalia need? And am I that person? Oh, wow. Or to what extent do I need to change? Yeah.
Grant: Um, oh, interesting. You built the whole program and the whole company and the organization and it's so interesting to hear you reflect that. Yeah. But we
Phil: talk about ambiguity and we talk about, when we talk about leadership styles, if you remember that.
Uh, module four, you know, when we talk and we talk about the work of David Wilkinson at Cranfield mm-hmm. That had a big impact. You know, it's the. The sort of ambiguity advantage, and it's, it's whether you know that that's much more sort of consensus driven, I guess, but Yeah. You know, working with subject matter experts who may be clever than you and smarter than you, you know mm-hmm.
But are able to fix, you know, problems in different areas, which, which go, you know, sort of go beyond your own capacity. So, yeah, I, I suppose you could say that. Um, in terms of a leadership style, which also reflects in our degree programs to some extent. Mm-hmm. Is it sort of creating a space for other people to thrive?
You know, no matter, you know, no matter what situation is. But just coming back, back to what I was alluding to earlier, 'cause the pandemic was a crisis and I began to question during a crisis, during, and, and, and you know, to some extent, you know, the world is going through huge amounts of change at the moment.
Grant: Oh
Phil: yeah. Yeah. To what extent does. What are the qualities needed at a pointing crisis? Because sometimes you have to be more directive. Mm-hmm. You need to set out a clear vision for what it is you want to do, and I was really concerned whether I was that person. You know, I love that. Was I that person at that moment in time, right.
For my company? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Grant: I like that though. But that shows sincere reflection and internal examination of your own. Sense of identity, and am I right for this moment or am I right for this position in time? Yeah. Or do I have my own strengths, um, and moments of what I can contribute? And actually, I would think that that's perfect for reflection, you know?
Yeah. Critical reflection of, of oneself to be able to see how can I be agile? How can I adapt and how can I grow? Yeah.
Phil: Yeah.
Grant: And I can, I can also say from my perspective, I've known you, I've known you for years. I, I consider you a truly transformational leader. Um, which is, which is odd 'cause a lot of us more fall into a transactional.
Yeah. But I, I see, I see you as that. You've mastered that blended approach of when can I add value and when is it no longer about me, but it's more about the person. And you said it just a while ago, you know, uh, you see yourself as helping facilitate that with others, and that's truly transformational when you do that and you realize it's just not about you.
It's about them and their journey.
Phil: It is, and I, but I know that I'm. Probably quite frustrating also to kind of work with because you know, I, I, you know, I, I've been an entrepreneur for most of my life and entrepreneurs as, you know, thinking in a non-sequential ways and Yeah, and, and, and you always racing with ideas and thoughts and, and things like this.
And I, I just know I'm laughing, so by no means. Uh, uh, you know, I, I, I, I think, you know, it's something that you learn about and from all the time. Um, but, but yeah, when you say, am I, uh, transformative, sorry, kind of you to use those words, but, um. I don't know. I, I, I, I think that when you look back on what's been achieved at Consalia, it's been pretty transformative.
Not, not just for our business, but actually for the industry. You know, that we're in no one. And, and, and that's something to, you know, sort of. Be pretty proud about. Um, well, and
Grant: it's, it's nice that you say that as well too, because something that I teach within Scared So What, uh, which, you know, so well,
Phil: yeah.
Grant: It, you know, personal change is about perception. So it's interesting. I can have my perception of how I see you
Phil: Yeah. As a leader,
Grant: but yet you have your own perception of how you see yourself. Yeah. And we forget that sometimes.
Phil: Yeah. Yeah, because we talk, we talk about, um, you know, four, uh, four, four key mindsets for leadership.
You know, we talk about vision, we talk about desire to be the best. We talk about empowerment and potential. And I, you know, I, I, and since, uh, you know, those early days of defining those four mindsets, it's probably morphed a bit more to the ambiguity angle. Mm-hmm. As well, being able to deal with ambiguity.
Um. But actually it's, it's, uh, I I think it's quite useful to come back to those, you know, at certain stages in your sort of leadership career to say how, how clear is the vision? Mm-hmm. Uh, what is desire to be the best, actually, um, what does that mean, you know, in terms of KPI setting. And then you've got the ability, you know, the ability to recognize potential in in others.
And empowerment. So those principles, I, I would say, are sort of guiding principles that have helped define a little how I think about leadership. And you sort of come back to it and say, is it, you know, is this right? You know? Mm-hmm. Fit for purpose. But,
Grant: but I do like that that's always questioning, but you, and you know what?
And you can see it. We've all seen it in leaders that sit there and they actually live in their steadfast and say, yes, this is exactly who I am. Do we not reflect? Do we not change, do we not actually, you know, and I love that you're actually admitting that that is, that is something that you do. Um, well, I,
Phil: I, yeah.
Yes. And it, it is very interesting that, you know, the fixed and growth mindset, which you're mm-hmm. Very familiar with and Yeah. And you, it's, it's, um. It's, it's very interesting to use that as a framework. When you start to look at, you know, the challenges that you face, you know, you face ahead and you're thinking, well, can we, or can we not do that?
And you begin to question, well, am I looking at it as through fixed mindset or a growth mindset perspective and what's holding me back, you know? Mm-hmm. In sort of pursuing something. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's, it's very interesting. Oh, I love it. I love it. Looking at what are the, you know, what are the plates we need to spin in order to move on to the next level of, of achievement or development.
Yeah. Yeah.
Grant: Well, along that synergy, you know, what's holding me back? That's where Scared So What was born and, um, you were there, the, you were there the day it happened. I was there.
Phil: I'll never forget
that moment. Grant were really instrumental in, in guilty into my, into my current career path. So scared.
Grant: So what, for those of the, on the, on the podcast, you remember, it's the first personal change model in technology and it was born in your sales master's program. What does that mean to you and for you?
Phil: Well, I, I think you, you know, that, um, that we are incredibly, you know, proud of everything and I'm proud of everything that you've achieved, you know, in, in that.
And it's rare to get, you know, a student who's taken it on to. The levels that you've done and, um, and the, yeah, I mean, apart. From what you've achieved through your master's program itself, it fits very much through the ethos and uh, philosophy of the master's programs, which is a master of science. You're building upon a level of knowledge that we shared knowledge with you.
You looked decidedly pissed off when we shared various models. Said It doesn't work for me. I talked you back saying, come on, grant, create your
own. I thought I was gonna fail that class. You, you,
you, Your theory and then, and then you did, but you, you did it though, but by it, this is how I see what you've done, is by taking on board certain.
Learnings that you had from the program, whether it's Gibbs reflective cycle, whether it was, uh, the growth and fixed mindsets And so on, and you gave it your, your own personal nuance and it, and, and, and created something new from it. So, uh, for me that's, that's what. That's what we want to achieve.
Uh, but you've taken it onto, you sort of developed it into a doctorate, into your book and, uh, yeah. You know, it's, it's uh, it's amazing the ripple effect of what has happened from those. Well, when we
Grant: talk about, and I thank you for that. And when we talk about your leadership as we did just a while ago, you know, that was a perfect example.
Here we are in a master's in science level course, executive course, um, with other executives in the room, in the cohort, et cetera. And you're, you're actually portraying information. You're delivering information, transferring the knowledge over to us. And we were looking at, you know, a C'S worth of organizational change and the top global change models and methodology.
And that's what we were learning. And in that moment of my resistance, you could have very easily been a transactional leader and said, grant, this is the curriculum. This is what you need to do, and follow the instructions. And maybe your, your, you know, your master's program and project should be about this, but you didn't.
You had a choice there in that moment, and I was challenging you in your, in your deliverables of the knowledge, but you actually chose to actually say, what else could you do? What's next? You went right into. Pulling it right out. What's the resistance? What's the, and you, you, you, you chose through flexion to actually say, this kid, this kid, this young man has a, has an idea.
Let's pull it out of him. Yeah. And find out where it could go. And that's a conscious choice of the leadership, which is why I do describe you as transformational. Well, I thank you for that.
Phil: Yeah. Oh, it's very nice for you to say that. But it's, yeah, I mean, it's, it's giving people space, isn't it, to thrive.
But not everyone takes the opportunity. You know, some people do and some people don't. And you, you chose going back to your Scared So What? You chose to take control,
Grant: but you, but you know, honestly, and we talk about, you know, and, and, and, and I'll just gentle remembrance. I remember being terrified in that class.
Um, of my cohort members who were senior than me leading in sales and other organizations. And I, it was a very vulnerable moment to actually say, I dunno what I'm supposed to do here. And I don't believe this. Um, but I'm really proud of, of the direction of the way it went, which is great. Yeah.
Phil: But it, it was, I mean, you had a really supportive cohort, you know, you Yeah, yeah.
The very interesting people on that cohort. You know, you had some very senior leaders, like you said, who were there with their direct reports.
Grant: Yeah.
Phil: And that was in itself an interesting situation, you know? Oh, yeah. But, but the space that, uh, you created, I think and supported each other, you know. I know you must have been terrified and I, I, yeah, I remember some of the comments you made right at the very beginning of the program, and you, you got us all laughing.
Um, I'm
Grant: glad you were laughing. I wasn't,
Phil: I was so fearful. That's the, you know, I think the diversity also of the thinking that, that we saw, um. Yeah. Made it a very special group actually. Yeah.
Grant: Well, well, I keep coming back to transformation. I, I look at all of your work, transforming and transformation is at the heart of your doctorate, your books, your, your podcast, everything you do, the sales business school.
Yeah. What would you say the importance of personal change coaching and leadership is within transformation and really, uh, yeah. What's the difference between change and transformation?
Phil: Well, I think you, you've, you know, we allude to the, you know, the, oh, what problem are you trying to solve? Is it to, to create a faster caterpillar or is it to transform into a, a butterfly?
And, um, and so there's a massive difference, you know, between the two and a lot of people. Talk about transformation projects, but it's really just big change projects that they're doing. True, true. And a lot of transformation projects fail in its execution. I'm sure you've got all the data on. I
Grant: know. Yeah.
There's a lot of money behind that failure.
Phil: Yeah. So I think I, you know, in a world which is changing so fast and so dramatically, um. You know, it's the, the, you know, people are using it. Perhaps it's an overused term that you know, that Yeah, that changes the norm. But actually it really did, um, requires a deep rooted understanding.
Of, uh, what it takes to transform because, uh, you know, whether you're looking at it from a technology perspective with AI or a, a geopolitical situation, you know, with the challenges that the world is facing right now. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, you know, the, the, the, the, the Trump effect of tariffs and, you know, there's so much Yeah.
Dramatic. Um, stuff going on in the world that for many companies it is about transformation, not change. You know, they need to think completely differently. So, you asked me the question about personal change and, and that, you know, the, the challenge that so many companies have is. Is, uh, winning the hearts and minds of those that are actually having to go through change.
Yeah. And whilst you know, there are, and this is the point about your research that you've done, whilst there are many sort of models to, um, to help organizational change models, whether it's it's Kota or whatever, um, yeah. Not so much as you found out through your research, it's done on, on sort of.
Personal change, you know, an individual, an individual change. And, and um, and we know that without, you know, we always say that you will never achieve transformation, you know, organizational transformation unless you get transformation happening at an individual level, you know. Exactly. It has to go back to the individual.
So I'd say there's a huge connection, you know, between the two. Um, interesting. McKinsey report was, was about how many people do you need to have to support a transformational change in a company. I can't quote the exact date in the paper, but they, the figure of 7% came up, which is quite how many people do you need to have with, uh, this drive and the motivation to achieve transformational change.
Seven, quite a low figure, but you need, you need. You need a, a nucleus of people.
Grant: Yeah.
Phil: You can work with And then you get the ripple effect of There
Grant: has to Exactly. There has to be that en enabling moment,
Phil: enabling moment.
Grant: Yeah. Yeah.
Phil: And I think that what you've done with your, with your model is sort of created a very, you know, it's a, it is a simple, but often the best ideas are simple, you know?
Mm-hmm. A simple framework for people to look at a problem, um, and take control really, of how they're going to respond to it. Mm-hmm. With some sort of concrete actions that come from it. Yeah.
Grant: Yeah. Uh, well, I, I love how, I love how you teach this methodology as well too, because I was doing a keynote, um, the other week with, uh, about 60 C-suite, uh, members.
Uh, it was a Chief Revenue Officers amazing group. Amazing group. And I opened it up and I said, how many of you actually know how to facilitate transformation?
Phil: Yeah.
Grant: About three hands went up.
Phil: Yeah.
Grant: And I said, how many of you have been taught how to manage personal change for yourself? Zero. Zero hands went up,
Phil: but yet
Grant: they've all established that they were leaders.
This is the C, the suite. The C-suite. Can't say that word, a C-suite, but yet the two most critical elements, transformation and change for the individuals they haven't been taught how to do. And that shocks me. The
Phil: thing is, it's something that you sort of, I guess. Deal with, you know, through the busyness of life.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Just, just being honest with it, with it. A bit strong experience and, and some, some things happen to you which can completely, you know, destroy confidence and there are other things that help build it, you know?
Grant: Yeah.
Phil: So,
Grant: exactly. Uh,
Phil: you're right, but it's very ad hoc. It is not structured, you know, it's dust.
Yeah, situational luck, I, and things like, like that, uh, that, that, that, that may have affected change in a positive way. Mm-hmm. But no, I think that what you've done is now started to introduce, uh, you know, much more structured to it, you know, much more science behind it. Mm-hmm. And that's, well hopefully
Grant: we're giving people the, the way forward.
Exactly. Yeah. Well, let me focus on you just for a second. So, when it comes to guiding you and your organization, and even your students through change. You know, that personal side of it, how do you manage that as the leader of Consalia?
Phil: You mean for the students?
Grant: For students and even for your team?
Phil: Well, it, I mean, with students, I, I would say coaching is, is, is a huge, you know, sort of, um.
Element of this. And, and so, you know, for students, you know, for example, we get very young students coming outta school into a undergraduate program, uh, into the big wide world of commerce and business working for, you know, big multinational companies. And of course, you know, there's a huge amount of.
Learning that they've got to do. Um, but there's a, a massive support structure, you know, to help support the student through that journey. Uh, part of it is compliance driven, you know, so you've got, um, students attending programs, tripartite meetings with employees, student managers and so on. So there's a, a huge kind of support program so that you can help them.
Sort of navigate the requirements for the academic program, but also within the context of the businesses that, uh, that they're in. Um, so there is a lot of coaching support that's actually provided, um, the individuals when they go through the program.
Grant: Yeah,
Phil: and I hope you're going to be also talking to Louise about personal change and the program.
I know you're in conversation with her, so
Grant: coming in to see her next week.
Phil: Uh oh, great. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah, so, so I would say that, um, in terms of. Do you know, it's quite difficult when things are move, you know, I was talking to various team members yesterday that things happen so quickly, so fast. Yeah.
Even in a small business.
Grant: Yeah.
Phil: You sometimes forget the, um, pressure that people are under and mm-hmm. And, and, and that could you, that can suddenly explode. You know, that someone can suddenly, yeah. Have a meltdown. And of course, you know, it's, it's so important to capture people's context and, you know, sort of, and not take things for granted.
Grant: Exactly. And that's where coaching is so powerful as well too, because teaching
Phil: is powerful. Yeah.
Grant: You know, we, we wanna go out and nurture people, especially when we see people in those moments of crisis. Or even, I remember being, you know, a student in your, in your, in your program as well too. You learn something so new and all of a sudden here's the next assignment, and that becomes so daunting.
It's like,
Phil: how am I going
Grant: to do this? There comes the fear, the stress, the anxiety, the worry, the assumption. Yeah. And it's that gentle coaching moment. How are you doing? What do you think you could do? Yeah. What does that mean for you? You know, that gentle voice to ask you those open-ended questions. Yeah.
To actually give you the space, the time to think. Yeah. Nancy Klein, right. Her book, the time to Think. It's so empowering. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And that ability to break down, that change situation in that moment.
Phil: Yeah. Through
Grant: reflection. To actually help you to find cause. Yeah. Wow. Look at the time. We're already up to the end of it.
Dr. Phil, I'm so enjoying with speaking with you, but I have a question that I ask every single person on the show. Uh, just to close us out, what is one thing of advice you'd like to give out of people about change coaching leadership, or just life as you see it?
Phil: I think it's, you know. Just take advantage of every possibility that comes your way, you know, just
Grant: Oh wow.
Phil: Just, um, yeah, you only, you're only on this planet for a finite amount of time. Um, and yeah, just explore, you know, the art of the possible. And, uh, I love that. Keep an open mindset
Grant: that is empowering. Take advantage, explore, keep an open mindset. Well, to all of my listeners, we've been talking with Dr.
Philip Squire, who's the CEO of Consalia Sales Business School, Dr. Phil, it's been wonderful.
Phil: Thank you, Phil, to see you
Grant: again and to hear with you update on
Phil: your show. Yeah.
Grant: Oh, thank you. To learn more about Dr. Squire, to connect with him, reach out to him on his LinkedIn profile or directly at their company website at consalia.com.
I'll go ahead and drop a link to your profile here in the show notes as well too. Dr. Phil, any final words?
Phil: No, just, uh, it's just a pleasure to be with you here, grant, and see seeing you in this environment.
Grant: So, uh,
Phil: yeah, pretty proud of what you've done, so
Grant: thank you. And you know what, that never, that feeling of, of my pride for myself, for to hear that from you never stops.
So thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thanks, grant. Alright, we'll speak with you soon. And to everybody else out on the show, have a great day. Thanks for tuning in.