#213 – Consalia Roundtable: 2026 So Far Part 2: What’s next?

Full episode transcript: 

​Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.

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George: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sales Transformation Podcast, and it's a new host today. As, uh, I join you for the first time on the podcast. My name's George. I'm normally the editor of the Sales Transformation Podcast, but I've joined Jesus, uh, head of consulting at Consalia and Phil, CEO, and founder of Consalia.

To finish off a conversation that they started, um, a few weeks ago, we, we sat down to, um, to discuss the year so far, 2026. And the conversation was so free flowing that we, we ran out of time before we could get to talking about what Consalia had done. So we're gonna finish off a few topics today.

Unfortunately, will can't join us. He's off in sunny Portugal. Um, so that's why I've stepped in to kind of, um, host this episode and, and, and guide the, um, conversation along. So has us. Phil, how are you both?

Phil: great. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Decided this summer to, um, to not go away and we're seeing the benefit of staying and the most incredible weather that the UK's had ever.

So it actually feels like we're on holiday even over here. Um,

George: the good, yeah. It's very warm in this room.

Phil: Yeah.

George: Not in the, for sure. Not in the air conditioned part of the office. Yeah.

Jesus: Uh, thank you. No, all, all good here. Uh, today I'm in Spain, quite warm, but, uh, you know, I'm, yeah, enjoying enjoying some time here with, with the family.

And, uh, I think, uh, this, this podcast is gonna be quite interesting as per the agenda that, uh, George has prepared. Yeah,

Phil: absolutely.

George: Excellent. Well, with that said, let's move on to the first point, which is, is something that's actually happened since, um, you last sat down to record on this, which is that Andy Burnham is now officially the Prime Minister.

I think it was basically all but confirmed, or he hadn't officially stepped into the role, um, on the last episode that you recorded. But, uh, he now is Prime Minister and he is been rapidly announcing various policies. Um, but thinking about which ones might impact kins in the world of sales, I think the, the most important one would be he's announced that he wants to have a kind of shakeup of the education system and introduce, um, more technical education as well as academic education in school.

So he has announced that from year 10, which is age 14, uh, students are gonna have the option to combine their academic subjects with technical ones. And that, and those technical options that they're going to have are going to be locally linked. So ties into his wider theme of kind of devolution to regional areas.

So the, the technical options that students are going to have will be linked to local industries, um, and, and career paths that they might have locally, rather than being kind of set all centrally by the government. Um, so yes, I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on that, Phil?

Phil: Well, uh, yeah, I, I've been doing some work this past year or, or slightly more up in Manchester.

And, um, as a consequence of that, I've seen that the sort of effect that Andy Burnham has had, uh, there, which is really positive. I mean, I, I hadn't been to Manchester for 10, 15 years, uh, and, uh, uh, the development that's in the city and the positivity, the vibe that you get when you go there is, is is incredibly strong.

And I, I think that it'll be very interesting to see if Andy Burnham can replicate that kind of sense of positivity, um, nationwide. Um, so, uh, I mean this isn't referring to some of the changes to the education system, but I think he, he does have, um, a very interesting story to talk about hope. I think that's his sort of been his tagline.

Um, but coming back to the education. Um, you know, it's a bit early to say. I, I mean, it's gotta be a, it's gotta be a good thing to kind of link what, what youngsters are, are being taught at school with relevance in the local communities in which they, in which they, um, sort of live and, and, and hopefully one day will work.

So I think the sentiment of what he's doing is, is right. There has to be a correlation between education and sort of what's fit for purpose, and therefore technical education needs to be fairly, fairly high on, on the agenda or very high on the agenda.

George: So the question is, will, will we have, uh, 14 year olds learning about sales?

It hasn't been mentioned so far as one of these technical options, but do you think we could see it as sales being taught? It could be, or,

Phil: yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I think it, i, sales is something that's universal, isn't it? No matter what profession you go into, it's something that should be, um, discussed. I know it's discussed as part of a business studies, uh, type, um, programme.

Um, but I, I know who knows, you know, who knows? It's always, it is been very hard to get sales on the agenda as far as the government's concerned, uh, from our previous experience of the work we had to do to get the undergraduate degree, um, supported by the government. Um, but no, who knows is, I think it's too early to tell.

Yeah, I think so. But yeah, maybe sales will be on the agenda. I, I know that, uh, the ISP for example, in the UK has been promoting this idea of taking sales as a profession to schools. Um, we know quite a few of our young apprentices, for example, go back to their schools to talk about sales, but that's very different to having a formal curriculum module in the, in their schools curriculum agenda.

On, on that.

George: Well, maybe we need to, maybe we need to write to, to Andy Burnham or your, your local mp. Oh, yeah. And start campaigning for it. A good

Phil: idea.

George: Haven't make sure that sales is included in this new system.

Jesus: We should. Yeah, we should.

Phil: That's a great idea, George.

Jesus: Yeah. Yeah. It's a really

Phil: good idea. Yeah.

Jesus: When, when we speak about sales, you know, uh, I always, uh, remember my, my first child, you know, when, when, when it came and it started to speak. And then you do, like, I mean, during your career you do different courses on negotiation. Yeah. But when you have your first child, then you have like a master's in negotiation skills.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. 'cause you need to negotiate with, uh, very left hand. Yeah. Uh, and, and also you see the, you know, so the part of the sales skills are within the human DNA from the very beginning, I believe. And then, um, and then you go through the age of 14, 15, 16, at the age of 16, they start sometimes to take this kind of, uh, temporary jobs in a coffee shop or things like that.

They, they're selling there, right? They're, they're doing customer service. They're having. So, um, why not to introduce the sales as a professional, you know? mm-hmm. Uh, education earlier in, in, in, in to the j Why not on the technical element? I believe that. Again, I, I promise not to get too much into ai, but let me just give, uh, 2 cents on this because for the, uh, when, when AI has come into, if you think about a few years ago, you wanted to do something that required technical expertise.

So you, you needed a data scientist, uh, you know, uh mm-hmm. Um, uh, machine learning engineer, you, you, you need a different type of roles right now with the last language models. You need people able to use these models, which is, which are heavy on technology, but maybe the, the people don't need any, any, any, uh, training on technology really.

Right? So they're using technology, they're building bots, they're building agents, they're building workflows, uh, that require, you know, uh, complex, uh, it, but they don't know any word about the it, and that's because of the LLM. So, um, I think that's, when we talk about technical education, uh, if we just restrict that from the IT perspective, I believe there is, there are 2, 2, 2 branches now.

Right? Before it was like IT, engineering, computing, uh, computer science, et cetera. Now, yes, this is still there, but there is another one, which I consider, which is more high level, where you use the technology through enablers, like the hyperscalers, like philanthropic or, or, um, uh, open AI and, and produce a technical tool that helps the business to do something Yeah.

But is made by people that is not expert in data scientists, uh, machine learning, et cetera, et cetera. So I think, I think that's a, that's, that's a game changer, because now it is much easier to do almost anything you may think about. Yeah,

George: yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes the, some of the, some of the skills that you need to be good at using some of those AI tools are actually skills that were really important before, which is, I'm thinking particularly of being able to write a very clear brief for what you want.

'cause if you can't articulate what it is that you want, then whether you're working with an agency or with an AI tool, you won't get out what you want. So I, I think it's, yeah, some of these kind of skills we need to start building very early on are definitely gonna stand people in good stead.

Jesus: Yeah. Yeah.

Phil: Yes. I guess the curriculum of such education will be quite interesting to look at. Uh, professor, um. Linda Gratton, who's at London Business School, um, who's one of the foremost, uh, thought leaders on future of work, um, was talking about, uh, talking about ai. And she said, unless it's something that relates to sort of, she said, she's got this eight day rule.

Um, uh, she doesn't like talking about it because it'll be out of date, which is why she's never written a book about sort of ai, because it's, whatever you write about is going to be outta date very soon. So the, our point is, in terms of technical education now, what exactly is it that you're going to be wanting to teach, uh, these, the, you know, the, the children of this age, uh, in, on, on this particular topic?

Because it, for sure, it's going to change very quickly, but, but that may be to your point about prompting George and his, is what you were saying earlier, also sort of alludes to the fact that whatever you teach people has to be, um, current, if that's possible. Yeah. So the curriculum itself is gonna be so interesting.

I, I just dunno where you'd start with that.

George: Even just looking at traditional sales, if you're teaching at school, there's, there's bucket loads of transferable skills there that even if you end up not going into sales, you know, being able to present well, being able to kind of. Make an argument, um, being able to kind of have that confidence while speaking to people that might be much more senior than you.

It's all really important skills for all sorts of different careers. Not not only sales, isn't it?

Jesus: Yeah, that's completely right. Yeah. So when, when you have, uh, you know, maybe, uh, somebody from marketing, somebody from uh, IT that uh, wants something from the company, they have to present like a business case, a business plan, they have to sell it internally, right?

George: Yeah.

Jesus: So sales is not just sales department, it's everyone at least having a conversation and one person is trying to persuade the other one to do something. Yeah. The pro, this might be a physical pro, A digital pro can be a price, there might be an investment, a CapEx there be different options. Yeah,

George: absolutely.

Shall we move on to our next point on the agenda, unless you guys have anything? Sure.

Phil: Yeah.

George: Want to add on that? Which was that, um, we found that in, in March Gartner did a sales survey which found that 67% of B2B buyers stated that they prefer a rep free experience. And that corresponds to, did you say it was McKinsey that did the previous study that had a had a similar kind of stat.

And I think all of us here at Consalia find that slightly surprising that the majority of people don't want a B2B, um, not, it's not surprising at all on B2C, but B2B buyers would not want to interact with any kind of sales person. Um, Phil, do, do you have anything to say on that?

Phil: I mean, I find, I find it, it is interesting that Gartner have come up with something similar to, to McKinsey and it, it, it is contrary to the, um, research that we conducted at the end of last year.

'cause we, we, um, wanted, uh, we, we interviewed, you know, B2B buyers across the world about how they wanted to be sold to by salespeople. And one of the questions in the survey was this very question, would you prefer to have a rep free experience, uh, or not? And every buyer that we interviewed, and, you know, these were procurement, heads of procurement as well as general managers as well as, you know, heads of marketing.

The, the, the, the survey sample was, yeah. Both geographically wide and, and also in terms of job function wide as well. Not one of these people said that, uh, that they would want to a rep free experience. And you could argue in our case that of course we would say that, um, because we're in the business of developing salespeople, you know, uh, would a referee experience that Gartner is suggesting means that there won't be any reps in the world needed as we look to the future.

Uh, same with McKinsey. Um, and of course we would have an interest as we're in the business of developing salespeople, but so do Gartner have an interest, and McKinsey have an interest. Now they have big, big technology consulting divisions, so of course they would argue you need to develop your, your systems in order to make the procurement process easier.

But I do find it hard to say or hard, hard to envisage at this stage, uh, in terms of where the technology lies, that this is to be the case. True. Um, certainly from our experience, I would say categorically that I do not believe in that 67% I simply don't believe it. Um, I dunno what sort of buyers they were interviewing, but I I do not believe that 67% of buyers state they prefer rep free experience because that was absolutely the opposite to the research that we did.

Jesus: I think, Phil, that maybe that's the case. So what's, what, what is the audience they've been, uh, asking? Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Jesus: Because, um, there will be a lot of companies, uh, buying marketplaces or, or doing like, uh, tenders where, you know, essentially they are, I mean, the, the they out of public tenders that they, they is diff there, there are some things that are difficult maybe that the sales, uh, human relationship between the sales and the department that is buying, not the procurement one Yeah.

Uh, is established. But you know, I I'm a hundred percent with you. When, when, when there is a, you know, when, when you are talking to a department that needs something and you're selling something that is, is creating value for them, then the procurement is on site. But, you know, if, if the deal is big or strategic enough, even if it's not big, uh, there should be a human to human, uh, relationship.

We, we found that, uh, many times. Yeah. But, you know, these 67% is maybe like a blend of everything. And maybe they, but because of the volume of, uh, people buying in marketplaces or blind tenders that maybe this, that's, that's maybe the case. Why they get this, this percentage.

George: Yeah, I suppose you, you are still a B2B buyer if you are placing an order for five office chairs, you know, and maybe you don't need a rep to, to process that.

You just want to click and have it done, you know? Yeah.

Jesus: Yeah. Amazon has a Amazon business. Yeah. So it's, it is one of the marketplace, many, many, I mean, you think about this small and, you know, soho small office, home office or very, very small companies, many people buying Amazon and there is no sales rep in the middle.

Yeah. Maybe that, that's considered B2B as well. So

Phil: yes,

Jesus: definitely they should have kind of a segmentation within this 67%.

Phil: Yeah.

Jesus: And potentially we'll see that in the Soho's, maybe it's 80 or 90%, but in the middle. I mean, the, in the, in the large accounts is not 66, but 67%. It's more close to our, our approach.

Our findings.

Phil: Yeah. So it, it's interesting stat, but I think perhaps we need to dig into a bit more detail about that particular survey to comment more specifically about it. I do, I do agree with the comment they make in, in, uh, that about AI powered buyer support. You know, uh, I think that trying to make it as easy as possible for a buyer to procure your services is a desirable kind of aim.

Um, and I think that many organisations are probably looking at ways in which they can use AI to help, um, facilitate that process. But I think that the, you know, for the majority of certainly more complex buying decisions, the buyers would, would want to meet people from the organisation for whom they're procuring their services from, uh, before proceeding.

George: Yeah. I think it came up in the interviews, didn't it, Phil? Of, of wanting that accountability of, you know, if you are, again, it's particularly if you're making large purchases or, or complex deals

Phil: Yeah.

George: That you, you want to feel like there's someone on the other side who is accountable for, for this deal and, and fulfilling it, rather than if you've just clicked a button and and done it, then the buck stops with you.

Or almost, unless you know they've directly lied about what they're gonna provide, um,

Phil: yeah.

George: You know, that you are not gonna be able to point the finger at anyone on the seller side if things don't work out. So I think a lot of procurement people like to have, you know, even if they're not literally shaking hands these days, they kind of like to have that feeling that, you know, there is some or someone on the other side that they're reaching agreement with.

Phil: Yes.

George: The other, um, interesting thing from the, the Gartner sales Survey was that it, it highlighted that what they're calling value clarity is gonna be a kind of new imperative for salespeople and, and for marketing people as well. I would imagine, um, this idea of, because, you know, you aren't necessarily going to get people to hop on a call and have an hour long presentation.

You need to be able to really quickly convey what the value you are providing to them is both to their company and to them in their individual role. The, the kind of person that you are speaking to. I mean, have you found that in your kind of sales conversations, heus, that that's, you know, becoming more and more important that the need to get that across quickly?

Jesus: Yeah, I think, I think, I think definitely, right? So, uh, the value is something that is one of the key elements in a sales conversation, right? And value sometimes is not, uh, something connected to money or to, you know, or, or, or to the p and l. Sometimes it's connected to other things. Um, but now with the, again, with the use of technology, you can also compare offers very quickly.

So how do you stand up from there? You can find now some of the bigger consultancies that are starting to, uh, deliver AI projects or, or, you know, or, or custom price for customers based on a new pricing model, which is connected to, um, uh, let's say you only get paid if you get the outcomes you have promised to be delivered.

Yeah. And that's very connected to the value. So people now more than ever, can compare, can look and understand if what you're offering is something that really creates value or not. So there, there, there is no, sorry for the word bullshit. Yeah. So we, we don't have time for that. We need, we need to be real, really clear and if we need to trust on the value we deliver and have to be connected to some, uh, KPIs or either, you know, numbers or, or, um, or the soft ones.

But I think, I think definitely is very, very, uh, is very important. The value It has been always important, but now it's more critical because, because of the tools that, uh, allow you to compare between, uh, you know, different providers. So very quickly you can have like a radiography of the three contenders that are coming to a tender Yeah. And very quickly you can have like a, like a massive report on the three of them. Yeah. So then the value is, is it gets critical. Yeah. So definitely

Phil: mm-hmm.

Jesus: To demonstrate is not so easy nevertheless yours because if you have like a one hour pitch, you can go with your pitch. They can use all the tools behind to compare you with all the ones.

George: Yeah.

Jesus: But the, the value is not always easy to, to, to demonstrate in, in, in, in a, in a, you know, in a, in a meeting room, uh, conversation. Yeah.

George: Yeah.

Jesus: So sometimes it's why we should, uh, think about to do, offer, to offer like pilots or, you know, trials or things like that as people see the company in action. Yeah.

And see the, and and see the value. And this is something we are doing with some of our customers, um, creating a pilot to see how to prove that what is in the business case in the pitch Yeah. Is happening. And, uh, once it's proven, the company will have no problem to invest. Because then it's proven. Yeah.

But, uh, this is the thing.

Phil: Yeah. I think we've seen, uh, a big interest in certain of our programmes around building the sort of commercial acumen, you know, of, of the sales teams and, uh, that there, maybe I'm not, not absolutely certain that this is reflective of the industry as a whole, but certainly for us, we, we've seen with our clients, uh, heightened focused on commercial acumen and a heightened focused on negotiation skills as well.

So this is all about sort of value management of the deal, closure on negotiation. And the commercial is really to give and equip the salespeople with a better understanding of some of the commercial drivers that impact, uh, an organization's profitability. Um, and you, you tend to find when economic conditions aren't so strong and easy as indeed they are now that companies do have tightened cap CapEx budgets and therefore it becomes a lot more competitive to try and, uh, um, and, and, uh, win those projects and, and, and generate the cash flow for your own businesses from them.

So for sure, these skills become, I think, heightened at times of uncertainty. You know, whether it's political uncertainty or, or whether it's, um. Economic uncertainty. All of these things, I think, affect, uh, the importance of looking at, at value. Um, but I think that to only, um, see value as, um, uh, i in financial terms as, so here's this mentioned earlier, you know, is, is wrong.

That value can be interpreted in so many different ways. Um, you know what, you'll pay for a bottle of water as someone, uh, uh, who's gasping for water in a desert condition is gonna be very different to someone who wants a bottle of water. Let's say in the uk, actually, mind you, we're almost have desert conditions here.

George: Yes, we are Um, but uh, it says me gossiping for a glass of water at the moment. Um, but you, you know what I mean, is that, you know, it's quite interesting. I we're beginning to, um, also here, one or two of our students have done some interesting work around this notion of return, not a return on investment, which is normally associated with value.

Phil: You know, return on the value of the solutions you're, you're making. What's the return on my investment in you, but return on innovation. Um, and, you know, return is still important. You know, value is still important, but if you connect it with the world in which organisations are having to be more innovative, more flexible, more agile, then this innovation concept is very important.

And it's going to be intriguing to see whether, whether this return on, in, on innovation concept is something which, um, it's going to be built, um, built out further in, in the sort of dialogue of how to equip, you know, your salespeople. You need to become better at doing that. Um, so yeah, I think value for sure, but it's, it, it's important to understand, I think all the different dimensions of value.

Uh, and a lot of your ability to sell value is gonna be based on your skills in qualification, uh, that you've done upfront. And for that you need to have those customer conversations. Um, and it's often that personal contact that will help you define exactly what the value is of any, any given opportunity.

George: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean I actually had written down here on our agenda that one of the predictions that will made at the start of the year was that ROI was becoming much, much more important in, in sales pitches and that you needed to kind of provide some ROI figures, but maybe we are seeing a kind of broadening of that, that ROI is just one, one piece of that value picture and that,

Phil: yeah,

George: it's becoming more, more important to kind of get across value quickly and, and ROI is one way of doing that, but there are, there are other forms of value that you can need to take into account as well.

Phil: A hundred percent I think Will was very right in what he was saying at the beginning of the year. It's interesting, I don't know whether Jesus feels the same, but, um, this notion of change, you know that we say that change is happening all the time. Um, Jesus, do you feel that organisations are able to live with dramatic change more easily now than they did a year ago?

Meaning, have they factored that into their, their business? Have they factored that into their business models and how people are working so that it's become the norm, not the exception.

Jesus: I think some of them, yes. I think some of them, yes. Probably the ones that are more close to the technology Yeah.

Because of the industry, their vertical, their product. Some of the ones that may be more close to the traditional type of business. I mean, there are sometimes struggling is not such, such easy. Um, but at the same time, for instance, when we see all these technology hype with the, with the ai, I see pros and cons because if you are not like a fast mover, like you are not in this kind of group of companies that are let's say, ready to embrace the chains quickly at pace, et cetera, uh, but you are on the other group, which is maybe it takes more time, needs to digest first baby steps, you know, that necessarily doesn't mean that something is wrong because, uh, I've seen some organisations that very quickly embrace the AI for just ticking the box, but not having, let's say a technology or AI proper strategy.

While these are the ones that come from more traditional environments because of their nature, they are not ready to embrace the AI and all the technology and all the change so quickly. They need to go more step by step. So they are potentially for them creating the grounds more solid. Yeah. Rather than if they try to do the triple jump.

So I, I, I think there is no single answer to this, Phil, because it depends on the industry, the maturity, the, the appetite as well. Some companies are super huge and they don't want to hear about any, you know, external AI solution they want to build themselves. Some other ones do like a kind of a mix. Some other ones are, don't, don't have any idea about ai and they, they just use chat GPT within with a copilot Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Or things like that. So I believe that we, we are seen a d uh, a transformation in, in all industries, but the pace is gonna be different and it doesn't need necessarily to mean that you are okay or not if you are fast or not. Yeah. So it depends on, on, on every company, I believe.

I, if I answer your question, Phil?

Phil: Yeah, I think so.

George: Yeah. Well, shall we move on then to looking a bit more, less at the kind of wider sales trends and having a look back at some of the, the highlights and challenges that Consalia have had so far this year. What, what do you think? What, what would be, I mean, I know from my point of view as the, the editor reaching 200 episodes of the Sales Transformation Podcast, big Milestone, did that earlier this year.

Phil: It's, and you know, that's been, it's been incredible. I, I was looking at all of the different, uh, episodes, uh, that we have, uh, uh, could have created over the years and looking at some of the themes that, that we've talked about. And, uh, you know, it is quite incredible, um, you know, whether there are themes around leadership or coaching, uh, themes around ai, themes around the sales mindsets, which is obviously, um, uh, the masterclass series.

There's so many different sort of areas of content. And I think the 200 episodes was a massive achievement. I think, I think we're 220 now, isn,

George: uh, 200 and, I dunno which one this will be in the 200 tens.

Phil: Oh, is it 210? Two 20. So it's been a, a massive achievement. Um, so yeah, no, it's really, really good. And it, it, it, but it's also making me, uh, George, you may not want to hear this, um, kind of question, you know, where do we take it from now?

Where do we take the, the Sales Transformation podcast sort of into the future? Um, so I think that it could be interesting to take a reflection of what's been achieved and also start to think about how we, how we develop the content, you know, uh, the variety of different, uh, podcasts that we have sort of moving forward.

So I think, I think it's, yeah, it's been an amazing achievement, time to reflect back on, but a, a time to look at what's being created and I think move forward on, so, yeah.

George: Absolutely. And, and Jesus, on your end, we had the launch of the Sales Mindsets intelligence studio with aviso.

Jesus: Yeah. This is, has been, uh, like a delivery.

Yeah. Uh, because, uh, uh, we, we started, uh, back in what was, uh, feel like September or so starting to, to do some stuff and then started to train, uh, you know, we produced some, uh, materials as well. Uh, we went through various phases of training until we felt that, was good enough as to, you know, score the sales mindsets as to, uh, coach on the sales mindsets and, and, and provide role plays on the sales mindset.

So I think, I think, I think we've got to a point where now we are in conversation with some companies even, uh. We are thinking about to use ourselves as well, uh, wider than, than Consalia. And, uh, and the idea is to start to prove, uh, not just what we believe Yeah. And what we train, but proof in the real, in real scenarios.

Yeah. Worst scenario. So, I mean, I think, I think we should be all very proud of the sales mindset intelligence, that we've developed jointly with the Aviso, uh, um, top technology. Now we need to get into the, the, the baby into, into the first baby steps with companies and see how this, this moves forward.

Yeah. And then create this value of discuss before. Hmm.

Phil: But in the, in the training of the sales mindsets intelligence, and for those of you not quite sure what this is, essentially we, we have been interested in being the ability to be able to look at. Conversations through the, uh, lens of the, um, for differentiating and for negative mindsets.

So conversations can be sort of analysed the extent to which we're living the value of authenticity or intellectual authenticity that is, or client centricity, practical creativity and tackle audacity. And, um, and also looking at conversations also from a negative mindsets point of view. And we're interested in being able to sort of collect, you know, sort of information, but also once collected on, actually his is, we did it on live conversations, um, as well already, um, sort of ideas in which those mindsets could be enhanced as we've taken a very strong sort of coaching element to it.

Um, and, you know, it's been a, it's been a pretty impressive, I would say the, the kind of dashboards that can be created and, uh, sort of coaching suggested, uh, suggestions made . And it's a, I think it's a great achievement over this, uh, last couple of years. You say we started in September with a coaching, but the conversation started way before that, didn't it?

Yeah, that's true with the Consalia brains.

Jesus: That's true. That's true. Yeah. Also, the good thing is it allows, because we, we've always looked into the sales mindsets, um, as we can, how we can improve the sales mindsets on one person. Yeah. But when you have one team and you have, you start to have an objective scoring from an AI tool that has been trained.

So it's not what I believe from myself, what my direct, uh, yeah. I mean, my, my manager thinks about me, what my customer thinks about me. It's also what an, an objective AI tool that has been intensively trained. Uh, I mean, what is the, what is the, the perception of, of these four sets mindsets about how I'm using them.

And when you see this very profound, very deep for the individual at conversation level, at 10 level, but also as a manager, you can see your team. So you can see if you have a f. 10 people, 50 people, 500 people, and then you can see, you can navigate like a, like a big boat. Yeah. Like a big transatlantic boat.

You can navigate the transatlantic because then you see what is the, the part where you have to, uh, put more pressure on. But at the same time, every individual and every, uh, soup manager, et cetera, are able to, uh, nail down what is required by each of the components of the, of the team. Yeah. And each, each member of the team.

So I think it's a fantastic tool. We just, uh, I mean we've trained, uh, very intensively as, uh, really sane on, on, I mean, he's been training, so he's trained by a PhD. We've, we've done our own benchmark. I've not found any other, uh, coach, sales, coaching, uh, tool that has been trained by a PhD in sales transformation and leadership.

So I'm pretty sure there is something unique on that. And now, now we are in the, let's say in the pilot phase, you know, we want to be step by step. So we are, uh, we are promoting that within two or three or our customers to, to, to do pilots and demonstrate the value on top. So yeah, we, there will be more news about that, I'm pretty sure.

George: Fantastic. And on the, on the academy side, I mean we just, uh, well, I say recently it's, it's getting away from us now, but we had a, another successful graduation watching, um, some of our students graduate over at Middlesex. And, and the other big one that I can think of from the academy side is, although we started talking about it last year, it was at the start of this year that we had, um, our first kind of cohort of, uh, our level four advanced programme.

Um, that's this pathway where we're letting graduates from a level four apprenticeship, which we don't offer, join our level six apprenticeship, which we do offer that joining it in the second year so they can have this kind of continuity of learning. So we've had the, the first group of those people join us, um, from Royal Mail.

And so they're working our, their way through the programme now. And, and, uh, what is, from their perspective, the first year of their level six is actually the second year of the programme.

Phil: Yes, I had the, uh, pleasure of being able to, uh, run a workshop with some of those level four that have come onto the level six.

And it, they, and they do add, um, a sort of a, an interesting dimension to a cohort that's already been established for a year. You know, they're fresh ideas, fresh faces, fresh business. Um, but also I'd sense that the, um, sort of age profile potentially of level four, um, is going to be different to the age profile of people who come through, uh, on the level six.

So level six, you tend to get people straight outta school coming onto the programme, but with level four you can get people who are much more experienced in sales, but still wanting to get that, that university qualification. Uh, and that combination of, of, you know, early, uh, careers versus more later careers in, in, in the workshop really enriches the whole learning experience.

So, um, and both with both of those groups, uh, benefiting from each other and enjoying each other's sort of input. So yeah, it's been a, it's been a great launch this year of that pathway and I know that we're going to be doing much more proactive marketing of the level four to level six, I think, as we move forward, George, if I'm not mistaken.

Absolutely. Yeah.

George: Yeah, that's right. And it'll be interesting to see how the, that h thing plays out. 'cause I know that that's the kind of case of the demographics at the moment, but I wonder if, um, you know, a a, as this level four advanced pathway becomes more established, we'll start seeing more people that as soon as they finish their level four, they just, you know, they've come outta school, they've done their level four, and then as soon as they finish that, they go straight on to the, the second year of the level six.

And whether it's because it's a, a new programme, you're getting people that maybe did the level four a little while ago that are now saying, okay, now I'll go and do the, the level six. So it'll be interesting to see if that shifts much over time.

Okay. Well, any other highlights from the two of you of the year so far?

Phil: No, I think, uh, you've, you've highlighted, uh, some of the, the, the main ones, George. Yeah.

Jesus: Yeah, yeah.

George: Okay. Well then perhaps let's, let's follow that by looking into the future a bit. And do you have any predictions for, for H 2 20 26? Uh, I'm saying that by the time this podcast comes out, we'll almost be halfway through q3, but how fast time moves.

But yeah. Um, Heus, let's start with you. Do you have any predictions for either Consalia or for the world of sales as a whole?

Jesus: Let's, uh, prediction is difficult. Yeah. Um, I, I, I, yeah, I think, I think we will see more of, uh, uh, these, um, let's say autogenerated or auto developed AI approaches to companies. So I think people is starting to play more and more on building their own capabilities.

Um, particularly big, the big companies that have invested a lot on copilot or philanthropic cloud. Yeah. And then, um, they want to see some returns. So I think that they will be more investing in that. So I believe that for us, for, for Consalia, Our core DNA is connected to the human element, right? To the, to the human skills.

And it's not because of AI that this is somehow getting lost. It's, it's completely opposite. It is more important now. Yeah. With the technology, with the ai, it is more important to analyse and, and, and detect what is real, what is not, uh, what is a, what is a true relationship and what is not. Yeah. Um, so I, I, I believe that the training on these soft skills is gonna be, uh, in growth, in grow, uh, has be, is gonna be growing over the next months because I think many people is, um, let's say concern about that with this type of technology, uh, we lose some part of this human touch, which is so important, uh, to win deals, to create a good customer experience, customer engagement.

So yeah, I think, I think that's, that's what we will see. I think we've started to see some of it. Um, in terms of the, you mentioned as well of non-sales people. I always believe that the sales mindsets, I mean even if you take out the sales is objective. The mindsets we are working on authenticity, I mean, intellectual authenticity, client ity, productivity, and audacity, I believe that apply to any single function of the business.

So if there are businesses that understand that and they want to adopt and embrace as a culture, I don't see any, any stopper to, to, to train on the sales mindsets or the mindsets to any community, not just the salespeople. But of course that is like a generic statement. It depends on every, every, um, industry, every, every company.

But definitely is, is is my, my thinking when I go to companies, sometimes there is a strong culture and this a strong culture. Sometimes it's aligned with some of the mindsets, but they don't call them sales mindsets, but they, they call them about being authentic, being client centric. Client centric is maybe, you know, uh, you have internal clients.

Yeah. So you have a support function from, from sales. So it's a support function, but you know, it's, it's, it's, or legal. Legal is a, a support function to the entire business. Yeah. So that there is always a, a trade off. It's always at the negotiation. It's always like a, a client, a buy, seller relationship. So that's, that's maybe my, my prediction for the next months.

I, I dunno if it's, uh, I dunno what you think guys, what you think Phil.

Phil: Um, I can just maybe just add something that's, that sort of caught my attention more recently, um, uh, through one of the podcasts we did with Jonathan, uh, scripts on Neurodiversity. Uh, also looking at the work of, um, Linda Graton on Future of Work, uh, and also listening to various things on the, on Radio four recently.

But, um, but you know, the pandemic, um, the effects of the pandemic on the sort of mental wellbeing state of the nation, particularly young people who, who were caught up in that pandemic situation, sort of leaving many actually, um, unsure of themselves and, and anxiety at very, very high levels. I think, I think that we may now see those people coming into work, uh, into, uh, potentially sort of leadership roles.

And I think there's going to be much more focus on this as, as we move forward also, if we start to look at the uncertainty of the marketplace, you know, so not being quite as sure, um, about where the future lies. Um, so I think that what is coming up, um, and maybe this is also part of predictions for H2 26 and beyond, is, and it could be this, this human word that you've mentioned, Jesuses, but there's going to be, um, much more awareness required of the, um, neurodivergent kind of individuals.

You know, people who are suffer from. Uh, anxiety that they suppress, uh, intentionally because it would be seen as a sign of weakness. So I think it will be an incumbent on us to address those kind of issues if we're looking at coaching programmes or leadership programmes to recognise that, uh, this is a topic that we need to take sort of fairly seriously as we, as we look ahead.

'cause things are only going to become sort of less certain as we look to the future. Um, but yeah, on the topic of, of non-sale people, uh, I think we've seen here at Consalia a huge, uh, interest in this, um, uh, in this topic, um, from, uh, from different clients. Uh, so yeah, I think you're right. I think, you know, back to a point that was made earlier in this podcast is that everyone is in fact a sales person.

You may not call yourself a sales, but everyone does sell. Um, but, uh, I must admit, I'm always caught by surprise at those that are say in customer service positions who just don't like that word so much that they sort of shudder with the thought that they may have to do any in inverted commas selling.

Uh, but it's important, you know, everyone is an ambassador for the company for for whom they work. Um, so yeah, I think there is being made a greater focus on sales, for non-sales people, and I think that's a good thing.

George: And Phil, do you think, are we planning on launching potentially some kind of dedicated product or like dedicated module specifically for, uh, sales, for non-sales people?

Or is it, um, just that we kind of tailor our existing things around around them gi given that we have had so much interest?

Phil: well, with our bespoke programmes, we, we are kind of doing that anyway, and I, I think the fact that we approach sales from a, a values and mindset perspective sits really comfortably with this kind of community.

Um, you know, it's less about technique and it's more, it's more about how, how you think and how you act and it's all, you know about being authentic. So, that could be the case, George, of us developing something sort of more dedicated for this community. It's a good point. it'd be very easy for us to do it.

Very easy for us to do it. I'd say,

George: well, like you say, we we're already doing it, so it's Yeah. We already doing it. Been,

Phil: yeah.

George: But it's just been sort of woven into some of our kind of existing stuff in it because it's, yeah, both some of our top clients and then also kind of, it feels like more and more frequently this year, we've had inquiries come through from consulting firms, from civil engineers and, and places like that, that aren't doing, you know, there aren't traditional banks of desks full of salespeople, but there are people that have, are having to do selling, uh, and are clearly waking up to that more.

Phil: Yes. It's quite interesting when, when we get approached by organisations who, who don't per se, have a sales force, um, uh, but they do have people that in inverted sell to clients', customers and wanting a programme in order to make them more effective at selling, but not wanting any sales training, per se.

So, so I think we understand what they're saying is that one needs to handle this topic very sensitively, uh, with those people who may have become civil engineers or accountants or, or, uh, I don't know, customer service people who've never gone into that role with the idea that they would be in inverted commas selling, but in fact they do what they do plays a massive role or has a massive impact on, on the performance of their client relationship.

So I would've thought it's an essential part of their, their curriculum, uh, of dev ongoing development, that it's a topic that, uh, even non-sales people should, should be sold, told, taught how to sell.

George: Absolutely. Um, the only other thing I have on here as a a, a kind of look ahead for Consalia in, in H two is more, it's less something that is going to happen in H two and more that we're announcing that something isn't going to happen in H two, which is gst.

Isn't that right, Phil?

Phil: Yeah, it is. I mean, uh, we've traditionally held GST at the London Stock Exchange and, and they've decided that they need to give it the stock exchange, the venue, a massive refurbishment. I think it's going be under construction, is it George? For two or three years? Maybe.

George: Several years.

Yeah,

Phil: several years. So it's going to be a massive facelift for them, which has meant that we needed to, to find another venue that would be suitable. And it's actually quite difficult when you look at the symbolism of the stock exchange to find a venue that, that, that has something similar. Uh, so that, that was, uh, kind of part reason why we have felt that, uh, you know, we needed to go out and make sure that we get a venue that will reflect, um, uh, some of the, I don't know, values that, uh, we believe to be important.

Uh, I think we've now done that. So our GST now is going to be pushed from this year into next year. I think it's February the fourth. We've just announced it when, when it'll be run there, King's Cross. Um, so more news on this, uh, kind of later. Um, but yeah, I think, uh, next year's GST is going to be, uh, sort of an interesting one, partly because I think it's going to be the last one that I facilitate George, um, as well.

So go, it's gonna be big, big shoes

George: to step into for whoever has to do that

Phil: anyway. Yeah. So that, that for us is quite big news. 'cause it's always been the linchpin of the year, hasn't it? The, the key event of the year. GST. Yes. So it's, it's not been a decision taken lightly.

George: Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of, um, what the theme is going to be, I know we haven't quite nailed it down.

We haven't nailed

Phil: it yet.

George: We've got a meeting discussing it, coming up.

Phil: Yeah, I mean, I really like this notion of return on innovation because most, you know, it's significant. Purchases, not all of them, you know, are there to, to affect some sort of change, you know, change of supply or change or buying in a new service or, uh, you know, in order to do something.

And I think the work that one of our students have done on this topic is so interesting that we could build a theme around this topic of innovation. Now, how, you know, it's one of the core values that we talk about, the mindsets of proactive creativity and tap full audacity. And both of these mindsets lend itself to this innovation theme.

Um, so yeah, really, uh, yeah, we haven't nailed it down yet, George. I know. But, uh, I think this idea of return on innovation, um, or return on dot, dot.is something that we might want to kind of explore further.

George: Yeah. I mean, if, if, uh, any of the listeners want to get to grips with this return on innovation concept, we did an, an episode on, on this, didn't we Phil?

Phil: We did with ivano. Yes.

George: We did an episode with Ivano Forsati, that was one of our mastercast episodes, um, where, and so this, this idea comes from him. So yeah. I recommend you go and, and check that out if you, if you haven't listened to that one already.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah. It is amazing to know what Ivano has done to shift the mindset of, uh, his sales team and some of the practical ideas that he's brought to them. Is, is well worth the listen to. I agree.

George: Fantastic. Well, um, do either of you have any, anything else to add on the, both looking, looking back and ahead?

Jesus: No, I think that's all,

Phil: that's all for now. No, but thank you George for Hastings standing in for Well,

George: no problem at all. Well, thank you guys for coming back to, to record, um, record again on this.

So, um, yeah, no, we thought that it was only going to be one episode, but clearly 2026, there's a lot to talk about.

Phil: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you George. Thank George. Thank, thank you Jesus.

George: Well thank you guys.

Phil: Yeah,

George: thank you. Bye-bye. Bye.

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