#200 – Celebrating two hundred episodes of The Sales Transformation Podcast!

 

 

Full episode transcript: 

​Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.

 

 

Eddie: Okay. Hello and welcome to the Sales Transformation Podcast. Uh, a special episode today, isn't it, Phil?

Phil: It is.

Eddie: Uh, this episode is our 200th episode.

Phil: I know.

Eddie: Uh, quite a milestone.

I say it's,

Phil: yeah.

Eddie: Um, first off, Phil, how are you?

Phil: I'm fine, thank you.

Eddie: Yeah. Yeah. And secondly, how does it feel to have reached 200 episodes?

Phil: 200? Um, well, I, I think it's a fantastic milestone actually. I, I think when we set out, we definitely saw it as a long-term sort of strategy, a way of disseminating information, to the greater we, if you like, as we refer to it.

So yeah, I'm absolutely thrilled we've got here.

Eddie: Yeah,

Phil: it's been, it is been a very interesting journey.

Eddie: It has been, it has been. Um, I think our, our research team has, has handed me this note where, uh, apparently according to a company called Pod Match, uh, only 2.66 of podcasts reach 200 episodes and over half don't even reach 10.

So I think that that says a lot about, uh, our commitment to the podcast, doesn't it?

Phil: Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing.

Eddie: Good. So I guess looking back, um. You know, a lot of companies decide to start podcasts. Um, and I still remember when I tried to pitch the idea to you around around creating a podcast. Um. I know why I wanted to, to start the podcast, but what about starting a podcast was so, so interesting to you?

Phil: well, I, I think that if you go back to when the podcast was started, which is October, 2020, um, we were still in the throes of the pandemic.

Eddie: Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Phil: And I think that there was, um. In a sort of sense that we're moving much more to a digital kind of environment because we had to very quickly, um, consider other means of, of getting, um, our sort of messages out, whether it's training content, um, or, or just helping to, you know, promote our thoughts and ideas about the world of sales.

Mm-hmm. And, um, I think the way that. Consumers consume information, you know, 'cause we, we have the Journal of Sales Transformation that we'd started way back in the early days. Um, but I think, uh, you know, a lot of people find it more convenient to listen, um, to podcasts rather than sort of pick up a catalog or subscribe to a magazine.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: So, yeah, it's, uh. It's, it was something that I, you know, I was totally in, in alignment with. And there were one or two clients that we had also that said, Phil, you know what you should do is a podcast Yeah. As well. So it's nothing like po you know, clients to also encourage you on a particular journey.

Eddie: Yes.

Phil: Um, and I, I remember, I think it was Samantha Vessels who told me, he said, Phil, you know, what you should do is do podcasts. So I listen to podcasts every time I'm in my car driving to the office, and I can't hear what Consalia has to say at the moment. So yeah, in a way, you know, it's a combination of things that yes, that made us want to do it.

Eddie: Of course. I mean,

Phil: what, what about for you?

Eddie: Well, uh, 2020. What a weird time wasn't it? Um, it was weird. And, uh, I obviously started at Consalia, uh, around April of that year. And, uh, obviously going into lockdown, I'm now then tasked with a, you know, coming up with a marketing strategy right away. You're not, not allowed to go to events.

Yeah. Uh, everything's digital. Um. But I think I noticed it in my own sort of, uh, um, personal life where I guess like Samantha, I was listening to podcasts a lot more and maybe that's because of the time. Yeah. Um, I was consuming a lot more content 'cause I had more free time, uh, you know, walking the dog in and just staying indoors.

Um, but it's like what you said. Uh, I, I saw the, the podcast as a kind of platform for us to essentially distribute our thought leadership, our perspectives on the world of sales. 'cause um, you know, it's no surprise that we have a, a very interesting. Perspective on the world of sales and the world of selling, and in particular values-based selling.

Yeah. Um, and yeah, I thought how, how cool would it be to, to get Phil on a podcast? And, uh, uh, I'll talk about it in a second for my next question, but that was kind of like the, the crux of why I, you know, pitched the thought of a podcast to you in the first place. And actually, that's the first time I heard that Samantha Vessels was also a,

Phil: yeah,

Eddie: she was an

Phil: influence.

Influence. So,

Eddie: yeah.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah, she was definitely an influence. So yeah. But I, I, I reckon I was fairly easy to convince it would be a good thing to, to do. I wasn't very easy giving you any very, I wasn't giving you any pushback at that, that particular Okay, good.

Eddie: No, of course. Of course. Uh, I was so happy that you said yes for the first time.

So that was, that was an early win for me, early win for me. Great. Um, do you have any, any interesting memories from the early days of, of podcasting at all?

Phil: Well, I think that, uh, in, in order to sort of get us going, um, we, uh, needed to get or wanted to get, um. People invited, um, uh, to the podcast who could be considered thought leaders or could provide, provide some sort of thought provoking perspectives.

Um, and, uh, we went, we, we aimed quite high. I think with, with the people that we invited, so at a very early stage, we're in the pandemic. You know, there was a critical problem that, uh, we needed to address, which is this whole topic of resilience. Uh, there was a lot of conversations about mental health at the time as well, but, um, kind of those, those early podcasts with.

Um, Graeme Lamb, Baz Gray, and uh, also Carol Pemberton.

Eddie: Yes.

Phil: I think were were brilliant

Eddie: resilience trilogy,

Phil: wasn't it, because of re the resilience. Yeah. And it's as appropriate today, I would say. Of

Eddie: course,

Phil: yeah. As it was then because my goodness, you know, business has gone through since then, so many different.

Challenges and so on. But

Eddie: yeah,

Phil: no, I think it was the, the excitement of. Of getting it launched, getting some really high profile people mm-hmm. To come and join us. So it is not just distributing our thought leadership, um, but it's also distributing anyone's thought leadership.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Um, so providing a platform, whether it's for our master's students who've done some really interesting pieces of research, or Yes.

Whether it's our research that we've done that we could talk about. Um, for me it's a platform for. Giving people who've got great ideas, a chance to share them, uh, with the world and not necessarily go for the, uh. Um, if in inverted comm sort of gurus out there, but it's, you know, the practitioner based, uh, insights that so many of our podcasts, uh, have, I think is what makes the sales transformation podcast.

Um, series that we've run so special.

Eddie: Yeah, I agree. I think, um, a lot of the, the interviews that I've listened to, um, they are, they are a lot different to some of the sales podcasts out there. I think, um, ones I've come across are obviously kind of more line of, you know, kind of the, the quick tips and tricks that you can do in sales, but I think the conversations that.

We bring to the table are more around getting people to really reflect and think about Yeah. Their way of selling. That's right. Um, but, but yeah, I guess in terms of memories, I think one of my favorite memories from um, back in the day, and actually we should kind of bring it back 'cause it's been a while.

Uh, I remember when you, uh. You, we had the podcast studio set up in this very room, and, you know, you're doing a lot of virtual, uh, remote podcast episodes. Um, and then you started to have this distinct look about yourself with the microphone in front of you and the infamous headphones. Do you remember those?

Phil: I do. Yeah. They, they kind of dwarfed me. Of course, I, I think you, you, you intentionally make out, uh, or chose the headphones to make me look. You know, particularly, I don't know, uh, what's the word?

Eddie: Great. Amazing.

Phil: Great. No, I wouldn't use that word. I'd say, um. Well, slightly ridiculous.

Eddie: Oh, absolutely not. No, of course not.

Um, we would, you know, we were trying to give you a distinct look. Uh, you know, I don't mean, I am in marketing after all, trying to make distinctive brand assets, and I, I feel like the headphones were kind of your core

Phil: brand asset. Well, part of that, yes. I remember shaking with you about the, uh, the, the headsets.

Yeah, that's true. I've forgotten about that actually.

Eddie: Yeah. Honestly,

Phil: why didn't we use them now then?

Eddie: Uh, I think, I think you, uh, just decided to stop wearing them one day and I never picked you up on it, so maybe I'll pick you up, pick up you on that again. Well, the

Phil: quality of the sound I think has been pretty okay.

Yeah.

Eddie: That,

Phil: yeah.

Eddie: No, of

Phil: course. Perhaps we don't need it.

Eddie: Maybe I'll try and convince you again. Oh,

Phil: okay. Well,

Eddie: um, so I guess obviously getting to 200 episodes is, is quite a, um, a big achievement. Do you remember any kind of. Specific challenges, uh, with, with, um, starting out with the podcast or, or anything like that?

Phil: I think it, I think it was reasonably easy for us to do, um, partly because we have a continuous, um, supply, so to speak, of, of practitioners who've done fantastic research based

Eddie: mm-hmm.

Phil: Um, projects, you know, let alone the broader network of people that we meet, that we invite, uh, to come and join, uh, these sessions.

So, um. You know, for me it was a question of. Sort of doing as much as we could, um, that wouldn't disrupt, you know, the everyday, uh, sort of running of the business. Mm-hmm. And so I know whether there were any particular challenges. I mean, technology has worked pretty well, I would say.

Eddie: Yeah. I, yeah, to some extent.

I remember the early years were quite a challenge trying to. Get everything together. But, you know, once, once we got that sorted, it was plain sailing, I thought. Yeah,

Phil: yeah,

Eddie: yeah.

Phil: So I, yeah, I, I don't see that there'd been too many. Yeah, too many sort of, it was a relatively easy thing Yeah. To, to get going, I'd say.

Eddie: Good. Good, good.

Phil: Yeah, obviously very good planning on path of marketing.

Eddie: Oh, I'll take that. Yeah, I'm sure George and I will be very happy

Phil: with that. Actually. I think George has added a, a very interesting dimension. 'cause I think George's voice is so much better than anyone else's.

Eddie: Just get him on the podcast more.

Eh,

Phil: i, I, I think the, uh, the ones where he's introducing the podcast art. You, he has certain gravity in his voice.

Eddie: I agree. I was pleasantly surprised on my way to work. And I heard George's George's voice beam about an introduction. So, you know, we should get George on the podcast more.

Phil: We should, I think it tends to be the GST type podcast that, uh, George kind of introduces.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And two different types of music as well.

Eddie: Yes.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Um, so obviously since 2020, um. You know, we've been running the podcast for a number of years now.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Um, how do you think the show has changed in that duration of time?

Phil: God, that's an interesting one. I'm not sure It's changed a huge amount.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Maybe it has, I mean, what do you think it has? I mean, the topics have changed.

Eddie: That's what I was gonna say. Yeah.

Phil: Oh, I mean, the themes have changed and I mean, I, you know, it is quite interesting that, um, I've.

Decided to start writing a sort of learning journal again after too many years, to be honest. Um, and um, and what I've noticed as we reflect back over the 200 episodes is that it is a kind of learning journal. Yes. Um, uh, in the way that we're capturing, uh, events in the context of often. Things that are happening around the world.

I mean, we mentioned the pandemic. Um, and of course, you know, we've, we've, you know, we talked about resilience, we talk about technology and AI and all these things. And so you're sort of tracking, you know, sometimes fairly seismic things that are happening in the marketplace as we are delivering, uh, the.

Um, sales podcast series. So, looking, looking back on it, it, it's interesting how, you know, the, you know, the pandemic's interesting, isn't it? Because we'd kind of forgotten about that.

Eddie: Yeah.

Phil: Yet it's had such a profound impact on the world, but we'd sort of moved on.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: But we don't remember how, how challenging it was at the time and how.

Uh, I don't know. It was disorientating. It was at the time for so many of, you know, people at a personal level, at a company level. I mean, it's quite extraordinary what we've been through.

Eddie: Mm.

Phil: Um, but now we've moved on, it's now AI very much in the form. Of course, we've got the, the war situation in Iran, which we, we haven't really, um, sort of talked about that on any of the podcasts, but, um.

Uh, yeah, I, yeah, it's just interesting how the world moves on at faster and faster rates.

Eddie: Yeah,

Phil: yeah.

Eddie: No, I agree. I think, um, I think the, the podcast itself hasn't really changed. You know, we, we still try and, um. Bring to the platform really engaging conversations and thought provoking topics. Yeah. But yeah, I guess, you know, the themes definitely have changed throughout the years.

Like you say, from pandemic to

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: To AI and, uh, who knows what's, what's I store for the future. Right? Yeah. Um, but have there been any kind of favorite episodes that stand out to you at all?

Phil: I mean, this is very difficult. I know we get asked this about, you know, at the end of each year you say, what's been your, you know, favorite one?

And you, you know, it's so difficult because each one, each podcast actually, uh. It has so much value in itself, and I, I've, I enjoy going back to earlier episodes of podcasts to remind myself of some of the insights that each one of them actually provide. Um, but I did, I did really enjoy the resilience, uh, series that we had at the very beginning.

And, um, uh, to have, um, sir Graham Lamb join us mm-hmm. On, uh, was it. Was that episode three? I

Eddie: believe it was episode three. Yep.

Phil: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, was, uh, was a, a great coup, so to speak. Yeah. If one could use that word. Um, he had speak, he had spoken at our GST event mm-hmm. Um, some years before. And so I knew that he would be a, a fabulous speaker.

And, uh, Graham comes across as someone who. It's very laid back and, you know, sort of very cool and, and seemingly unstructured, but the preparation he put into that, mm-hmm. That podcast, the conversations we had before it was delivered just showed. Um, how thorough his thinking was.

Eddie: Hmm.

Phil: And, uh, I remember him, him saying at one of the, uh, at the GST event that, uh, he quoted, was it Einstein's, uh, comment about if I had an hour to solve a problem, you know, I'd spend, you know, 50 minutes or 55 minutes, you know, thinking about the problem and five minutes coming up with a solution.

Mm-hmm. And I could actually see that. In a way, you know, him living that kind of thought process, um, as he, as he prepared for that first, um, well, one of the first episodes that we ran.

Eddie: Yeah.

Phil: So, yeah, it was, it was really good. And he has this amazing ability to, you know, pick out quotes or ideas. Um. And, uh, uh, he, you know, little things like what's the difference between a crisis and a problem?

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And, and, uh, 'cause when, when you're talking about sort of being resilience, you know, part, part of the part, part of the, um, art of being resilient is defining what, what the problem is. Mm-hmm. Uh, and he said, uh, he said very casually, he said, I've only been, I've only found myself in a minefield twice.

Yeah. And he used that to illustrate the sort of concept of, you need to know that you're in a minefield to know that you're in a crisis. You know, you need, if you don't spot where you are, you've got a big problem on your hand. And, uh, and so his ability to connect. Because he used to be the director of the, um, SAS forces as well.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And, um, he was one of the team that, that, um, that funnily enough actually, um. Took over the Iranian embassy in London. Funny, isn't it? I hadn't made the connection. It was in South Kensington. Do you remember there were some sort of hostages taken? Yeah,

Eddie: yeah,

Phil: yeah. There. And the SAS went in and he was one of the SAS team actually going in to try and free the the inmates.

So isn't it funny that we're now still talking about Iran today? Yes. Yes. I hadn't really sort of made that connection.

Eddie: Wow.

Phil: Um, but yeah. Um, so yes, he, he's, he's able to sort of interweave the kind of situations that he's been in

Eddie: mm-hmm.

Phil: Yeah. With his philosophy of life.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And I think one of, one of the, one of the quotes that he sort of came up with, um, that. Also was, I, I think, was, was quite interesting is that when you go into a situation which could be a, a kind of crisis and all the orders that you were given, um, were to a set of. Circumstances, which you found were to be the case when you went in.

Mm-hmm. His advice were to execute the orders that you should have been given. Mm-hmm. At the time. So he was kind of saying that, yes, all the preparation that you can do in advance of solving a particular problem is great, but you're also looking from your team members for the kind of agility to be able to.

Create their own set of orders based on the situation that they found themselves to be in.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And, uh, he made that connection very much, you know, based back to, to the values and belief systems because so much of the training in the special forces was around, um, having the right mindset and the right mental toughness to, to be able to deal with all sorts of different situations.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So he was, uh, it was very interesting sort of having, having him on. And then you, you had in contrasting, you know, to that you had Carol Pemberton, who

Eddie: Yes.

Phil: Yeah. Who came at the topic of resilience from a completely different perspective, from a coaching perspective. And, um, you know, Carol's journey, uh, her personal journey actually as a coach was, was fascinating.

Um, where she talked about, um. Coaching one particular individual who is a high flying executive.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And who, you know, he was, um, Cambridge Blue, I think, and, you know, top scholar in top of his company. Pat promoted into very senior positions very early and then reaching burnout. And he and she talked about this sort of alpha.

Orientation that so many of these executives have.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And, uh, she, she first, uh, she was coaching this, this particular, excuse me, this particular individual. Um, and, uh, he had to take time off, um, through to mental stress.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Pardon me. And she saw this as a fault of her own coaching style, that she wasn't able to, um, deal with this topic of resilience.

And so she, she did her PhD, uh, around, uh, the topic of resilience in coaching.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And, uh, and she talked a lot about humility and, uh, the importance of. Of sort of humility as, as being a sort of component of resilience.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Um, in the sense of being able to accept, you know, things as, as they are and not as you'd hope them to be.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Um, and it was yeah, led into support systems and, and love and other, other. You know, highly emotional intelligence kind of topics, which. Uh, was very different to Graham Lamb. Yeah. You know, so you, you, you had the topic of resilience covered in, in, uh, sort of two very different ways.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Um, then you had Baz Gray who talked about Shackleton, which of course the Shackleton story.

You know Baz as being a, a sergeant Of course. Yeah. To major in the raw Marines, um, and an Arctic Explorer himself. Uh, actually more sharing Shackleton's story than his own story. And, uh, you know, um, and talked about resilience and teamwork and leading by example. So those three, um, early stage, um. Episodes we did, I think are priceless.

I think, uh, I think we should, in the show notes direct, uh, of

Eddie: course

Phil: the listeners to those, if, if there, because, uh, you know, resilience is, is required as much now as it was then.

Eddie: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Um, such an important topic. And of course, we'll, we'll, we'll pop the, uh, link in the, uh, in the show notes as well.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's been so great to have a different. Selection of, uh, guests like you say, you know, you got your graham lambs and gras and, and carol pemberton's. Um, and what we've actually done is, uh, we've got a few, few video messages to show you from some of, uh, some of your past guests, uh, congratulating you on reaching the 200 milestone.

Phil: You kidding?

Eddie: Yeah. So let me just grab this for you here.

Phil: Oh my goodness me.

Eddie: Okay. So who's first? Ah. Recognize this chap?

Phil: I do! Fred!

 

Fred: Phil, this is Fred Diamond from The Institute for Effective Professional Selling and the Award-Winning Sales Game Changers podcast. Congratulations on episode 200. That's quite an achievement.

I've done over 850 Sales Game Changers podcast. I know that the work and the commitment that goes into it and, and all the fun and rewards that come with it. So, uh, it was great meeting you, you introduced us to some of your clients at SAP and Royal Caribbean and it was great to, to get to know them and I really, uh, wanna acknowledge the work that you're doing, uh, like us to help move the sales profession forward.

So again, congratulations Fred Diamond from Washington dc Wishing you best of luck and congratulations on 200 episodes.

 

Phil: Wow, that's a surprise.

Eddie: Yes. That's, that's good old Fred. Uh, second we've got... recognize this chap?

Phil: Oh, Phil!

 

Phil Styrlund: Phil, Phil Styrlund, CEO of the Summit Group. Congratulating you on the big 200 a podcast.

May you continue to influence others for the grander good of the profession of selling, and I hope that you influence them, like you influence me. Well done my friend. Keep up the great work.

 

Phil: Oh, it's been a great partnership with Phil, um, over the years and, uh, of course. Uh, one of the few PhDs now in sales, so, yes, exactly.

Yeah. That's great. Thank you, Phil.

Eddie: Uh, third, we've got good friend of Consalia.

Phil: Of course. Yeah. Okay. Gosh,

 

Ryan: congratulations, Phil and everyone at Consalia for reaching this milestone of 200 episodes. Absolutely fantastic. And when you think back about what you've achieved at Consalia for the last 15 or so years, being really the first mover.

Uh, Pathfinder for anything sales transformation related. 200 episodes ago when you started this podcast again, I think there, there weren't many sales podcasts around. And now look so Pathfinder yet again. Congratulations. And here's to the next 200. All the best everyone. Wow.

 

Phil: Fantastic. Another PhD here actually there in Ryan.

Eddie: Right? We're just bringing the big hitters

Phil: here, so we're bringing the big hitters. That's so nice.

Eddie: And then of course, uh, we, we couldn't have not invited, uh, our next. Um, guest.

Phil: Oh my goodness,

Eddie: Mr. Grant.

 

Grant: Hi there. I'm Dr. Grant van Ulbrich, CEO of scared so what, and I want to extend a very heartfelt congratulations to you, Dr. Phil, and to the consolidate team for 200 episodes of the Sales Transformation Podcast. Okay. Of course, I'm very biased. It has been great to be on the show with you as well too. When to talk about change management within sales teams. And how we actually look as sales as a change in initiation and instigation moment.

And if we can teach people how to manage change for themselves, then we can really truly transform business for our customers. You've had so many great episodes, so much learning, so much content, and much of it came from the sales master's program and all of the consulting and the support did you give to the sales community?

I thank you so much for your vision and your mission to professionalize sales and just really congratulations. Uh, it's heartfelt and it goes out to you and to the entire team. Well done. Here's to 200 more.

 

Phil: Wow. That's amazing.

Eddie: So the message I'm getting here is actually we need to do another 200 episodes, another two hundred.

Phil: Okay. Um, but yeah, just a few messages from, from a, a few key guests and, uh, oh God. You know, just, I'm sure you know some of these stats already, we've. You know, since the start of the Cell Transformation Podcast, we've had around 14,000, um, total downloads. Your most downloaded episode was, uh, episode 73, transforming Your No Company With the Strategic Narrative with Andy Raskin.

Yeah.

Eddie: Um, and of course, other top episodes, um, the, the, the first 10, uh, were always gonna be compounding, uh, in, in terms of down rates. Right?

Phil: Well, that's right. 'cause they've been around for so much longer.

Eddie: Exactly. And, um. Another three that were, were quite up there. Uh, episode 53, the transformation of the Chief Operating Officer role with, uh, Kathy Ward, uh, episode 138.

How the right mindset can inspire both your selling and your career with Jeffrey Hatchell. Uh, and episode 91, winning large complex deals, trilogy Part One, how to increase your win rates to 84% with David Mines. Yeah. Um. Any, any kind of memories from those episodes at all?

Phil: Well, it, I mean, there there've been so many and it's great.

It's, it's great to go over the back catalog, isn't it? And just kind of remind yourself of, of, um, yeah, the, the, the episodes that, that were run and I was really interested in the most downloaded. Hmm. 'cause I think that was one of your suggestions, wasn't it, that we should

Eddie: Yes. Yes.

Phil: Have an Andy on

Eddie: Andy Raskin, uh,

Phil: on the show.

And he was really interesting 'cause he was a, a script writer by

Eddie: Yes.

Phil: By profession. Uh, before. He went into the whole era of storytelling.

Eddie: Of course, of course.

Phil: So what made you invite him?

Eddie: Um, I think he was quite well known within the sales and marketing space, particularly for his work that he, he did on the strategic narrative.

Um, he's got this, uh, infamous. Blog article called, uh, the World's Greatest Sales Deck. Yeah. And just from that name itself, I thought, hang on, this, this is, this has got to be interesting. Yeah. Um, and of course I would be biased because I, I love the whole marketing angle to it, but I think, um, a lot of what salespeople do effectively, um, the ones that you know are in the, the top 10% are their ability to.

Tell great stories, right? Yeah. Um, and I thought that that would be such a transformational thing for, for salespeople to do. And I thought, well, let's, let's interview him about it and let's get to the bottom of it. Yeah. Why it's so important. So, um, yeah, like you, I was surprised that it was the most downloaded episode.

Um, but, you know, let's, let's, let's see what else is going to, to happen in the next couple of years with the, the other episodes that we've, we've had on?

Phil: I was pleasantly, I, what's the word, pleasantly surprised to, to, to hear about Andy's, uh, being the most downloaded. And I think what was interesting about Andy's podcast was. The angle that he was coming at this notion of creating, you know, the greatest sales deck.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And, um, some of his terminology was interesting 'cause he, he spoke about, um, concepts of the arrogant doctor. Um, one of the concepts of the ar arrogant doctor was, was, um, that in most sales decks, you, you, you know, you start with the, you know, this is how great we are, this is how, uh, you know, and this is our background, this is our history, these are our clients, and mm-hmm.

And, um, he talked about flipping, uh, the problem around and that, uh, where, where actually you don't start with. With the I at all. You start, you, you start with the, uh, you, you know, the customer.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And, uh, his concepts are very close to something that, that we refer to as third box thinking.

Eddie: Yes.

Phil: And we spoke about that.

Uh, I mean this, this is coming from Phil Styrlund that we heard earlier. Thank you, Phil. Um, and sort of, you know, we, the importance of starting with the customer's customer and sort of working back. Um, and his also, uh, one of his key concepts was about hooking a buyer by pitching a shift in the world.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Um, and that in the creation of a strategic narrative about what it is you do, um, you, you need to approach it from, you know, I guess it's simonson XY, um, but why at a, at a, yeah. Something that's, that's so significant shifting that if you don't listen to this, you're going to, you're going to, uh.

Kind of, uh, lose out. And I, I think in the way that we have been pitching a shift in the world, you know, in the sense that we talk about, you know, what is the difference between sales training and sales education And, um, it's been. The hook, if you like, that we have decided to focus on because we believe it's right.

And, um, and so there was a lot about Andy's, uh, conversation that resonated incredibly closely to what we were doing here.

Eddie: Yeah.

Phil: And so I'm, I'm. I'm, I'm really pleased that that's come out so strongly.

Eddie: Yes, yes. No, I think, um, like you say, it, it was, it was quite relatable. Everything that he was talking about within the strategic narrative and what we were trying to do and, you know Yeah.

Start talking and promoting this category of sales education. Yeah. 'cause it's not wildly spoken about really, is it? Um, I think our first episode actually was the difference between. Sales training and, and sales education itself

Phil: wasn't, it was, yeah. The very first one was,

Eddie: yeah.

Phil: So we started off with the, the, you know, what is the why of what we're doing

Eddie: exactly.

Phil: Uh, and, uh, yeah, it's no just really there, there's so much wisdom I think you get from, uh, listening to other people. You only need one trigger, one idea to, to set off a train of thought. And it's been worth the hour. It might have taken you to listen. You know, to that particular episode, so,

Eddie: yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: No, exactly.

And I think, uh, when it comes to, you know, looking at some more of the stats around the podcast, um, you know, it, it's reached quite a, a number of different countries. So just reading off the top 10 list, uh, uk, United States, Russia. Which is third.

Phil: I was really interested about

Eddie: Russia, quite, quite strange. Uh, Spain, Singapore, Germany, Netherlands, France, and Australia.

Um, so it just sh goes to show, you know, although we're, we are, we are producing the podcast in the uk, we're, our message is reaching a ton of different people in, in different countries. And that's just the, the top 10.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Um, but as part of the preparation for, uh, this, this special episode, um, I know that you've been.

Playing around with, with AI and the whole kind of analysis of transcripts? Yes. Is there anything that's, uh, kind of stood out to you throughout the whole kind of, uh, analysis of the different themes that we've been speaking about? Anything in particular

Phil: on the topic of ai? I, I have to say that it's, it, it's, I've gone through different sort of.

Phases to approaching the topic of ai. When, I suppose at the beginning of last year when it really started to sort of come to the fore, I think everyone was rather sort of overwhelmed with the um. Um, you know, with the promise of what AI could, could actually bring and that, you know, we felt if we didn't catch up with it immediately, we're, we're going to, you know, sort of fall behind and lose market share.

And, and, and also this sort of whole concept about artificial intelligence taking over, you know, so many of the basic functions of. What we can do in our work and where would that leave us as human beings? You know, it was kind of, it felt slightly, I used the term before dystopian in a way. Yeah. I just felt kind of, what, what is our role in life going to be if what they say is gonna be true, that artificial intelligence can replicate almost everything that that human beings can do.

And so it's kind of gone through that sort of, my goodness. Yes. This is a huge change, a huge shift into I think what's now become a more pragmatic and a more realistic and, um, uh, calmer, I would say space to be where we're beginning to see its potential, but we can also see where we can.

Eddie: Yes.

Phil: Have an opportunity to add, you know, the human dimension to it.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And yeah, I'm, I'm so excited by it. Um, like I said to you the other day, I think about it all the time, um, because, you know, we've, we, we've done this, this, uh, we recent global research. Project the, the state of the, the sales mindsets. And that in itself has been part of the sales, uh, transformation broadcast.

But it's, it's interesting how sometimes a, a word, uh, can trigger something significant. And as I've just said, that there is a podcast also that we've run with Dr. Liz Doko from the London School of Economics. Yes.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And she talks about how single words can be the difference between life or death.

And she talks about things like the difference between using the word talk and the using the word speak.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: You know, and how they. Uh, they can have a, an impact on whether someone will open up on or, or, or, or not.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Um, but yeah, so, so what's so fascinating about, about the research is, you know, first of all it goes back to the roots of the doctorate, you know, that, that I'd done all these years ago.

Mm-hmm. To check its relevance in the modern day context. And to a large extent, uh, you know, things. Have not changed that much from a values point of view, but the nuance that I think that somehow become to the fore, and I think it's such an important, uh, nuance that it's going to become, it's going to consume more of my thinking time.

Uh, in terms of how we, how we move forward, um, as, as, as individuals, as human beings in this world of artificial intelligence. Um, and you know, that, that word of intellectual, you know, surfaced And, and we've, we've now, uh, as listeners may, may know already, we've now sort of. Shifted the mindsets from Authe.

You know, the positive mindsets from authenticity to intellectual authenticity, client centricity, proactive creativity, tap audacity, staying the same.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And I've been, I've been thinking about this word intellectual a lot and thinking about what does that really mean? And uh, and, and I'm beginning to think that it comes down to three things.

Um, one is, um, the. Integration of different, uh, information sources. So the ability to be able to integrate different data sources. So that's a link with data. Um, and then you've got, um, intuition, uh, or sorry, instinct.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Not, uh, an instinct. And it's quite, it's quite interesting that word instinct, because.

What, what is it that, you know, we could take this word intellectual. There was something that leapt out of the interviews that made me think that this one word said by two people on two different interviews was something that. Needed more airtime. So is is, is that instinct that says that's, I don't know what the brow, the brain is kind of processing these things.

Eddie: Yeah.

Phil: Um, but, uh, and, and so you've got the instinct that there's something needs to be looked at. You've got this. Um, integration of different data sources. So you've got an instinct. I think there's something we need to explore here. You've then got, let's go out and think about it. Play around with it. So you, you know, you're doing more research on it, so you're getting sources from different data.

Going back to the interviews, looking at, are there any different data sources that can support this word intellectual without them having used the word, for example. And then you've got imagination. So you've got instinct, which is, I think there's some, you know, so this is linked to this concept of intellectual authenticity.

Instinct is important. Um, the ability to integrate different data sources, synthesizing information is important.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And then imagination, which is where do you go with an idea once it start to surface? Yeah. Mm. And so I think that the first two are more analytical in a way. And the, the third imagination is more, well, it's, it is not the the what, but it's the now what.

Mm-hmm. Question. So when we start to look at this word, intellectual authenticity, yes, of course authenticity is about moral. Purpose and integrity and transparency, but the intellectual authenticity is putting this layer of, uh, of, of, of, of, uh, you know, the, the human element, uh, to the fore. And, and so what does the human element bring?

Its instinct. It. In, uh, integrating different data sources. So how you might prompt AI to help you, you know, do research, but then it's the imagination.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: It's how do you then take this? So I think this is going to, I, I think it's, it's uh, it's growing this word, intellectual authenticity. It is,

Eddie: yeah.

Phil: Is growing.

And, um, I'm really excited by that.

Eddie: Yeah. No, I mean, it sounds exciting. This is the first time I've heard you talk about

Phil: these three eyes. I know it's three's the first time because I mean, it, it, it is because it's occupying so much of my head space at the moment. Of course, I'm thinking about how do we articulate what it it is we mean by intellectual authenticity.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: And I, and I would say you could break. You know, authenticity we've got covered. But the intellectual side, what does that mean? Well, it's, it's that curiosity that makes you think and it's your instinct. It's your, your bringing together different data sources, looking for patterns, and then it's the imagination

Eddie: mm-hmm.

Phil: Of taking it somewhere else.

Eddie: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Amazing film.

Phil: So I think it's, yeah, I think it's. I, yeah, I'm really excited by it actually.

Eddie: As am I, I feel like the next couple of hundred episodes are gonna be all around intellectual authenticity, perhaps.

Phil: It is. Yeah. It's so interesting. Yeah, I'm sure there's something in, in, in sort of great Greek philosophers or the Roman philosophers, you know, and, and it covered off some of this ground already, so, uh, probably we could look back in history and get some inspiration there as well.

But

Eddie: yes,

Phil: haven't quite taken it to that stage yet.

Eddie: I'm, I'm,

Phil: I think I will.

Eddie: I'm sure you will. I'm sure you'll, yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Um, so I guess just to close up a little bit, uh, as we get to the end of the, uh, the episode. You love a good curve ball.

Phil: I love her. Okay.

Eddie: And now's my chance to give you a curve ball, but it's, it's, it's a lighthearted, is it, uh, curve ball.

Um, I know we spoke earlier around, um, some of like your favorite episodes and you know, the, the most downloaded episodes as well. But if you were to think of one or two key episodes that essentially can explain to listeners how we think about sales or, um, can. Can kind of explain the notion behind why we think so differently about sales?

Are there any episodes that come to mind?

Phil: Well, I think we've got, uh, we've got quite a number of episodes that, that, um, that talk about, you know, the, you know, what drives sales performance. Mm-hmm. Um, um, which, which covers off the. Questions around sort of values that are underpinning sales performance at so many different levels.

Um, is there one in particular? You know, sometimes I find it easier. To kind of respond to someone interviewing me. So I've about the research. Yes. So I've really enjoyed, you know, some of the interviews that, um, Darren Mitchell

Eddie: mm-hmm.

Phil: Has, has conducted. I've really enjoyed, uh, the Mike Lander interviews as well, because, you know, he comes at this from a procurement perspective.

Eddie: Yes.

Phil: Yeah. And, and, uh, Darren has come at it more from a sort of sales leadership perspective.

Mm-hmm. Um. Uh, but they've, they've been sort of, uh, very engaging. Um, well, Fred Diamond as well. Course, I mean, he's got, so, you know, there, there's. And also there's is it John Barrows? john Barrows. John Barrows, right? I mean, they've all been sort of great in, in, yeah. In d in, in different ways.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Um, I mean, Fred is fantastic because he's so passionate about professionalizing sales, so Right.

Of course. Really, you know, to find people on the other. Side of the Atlantic who is really pushing, uh, pushing the same sort of, uh, ideas forward is is incredible.

Eddie: Yeah.

Phil: And he's such a hu you know, just a human person.

Eddie: Yes.

Phil: Yeah,

Eddie: I agree

Phil: as well.

Eddie: I agree. I think, uh, from my perspective on the same topic of, you know, people interviewing you.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Uh, we, I can't remember what episode it was now, and I'm sure we'll put it in the show notes, but where we interviewed you about your doctorate. You know

Phil: Right.

Eddie: All about the origins, because I think that's, that's where this has all started, you know? Yeah. The mindsets Consalia. Um, but also most recently, the, of course the, the GST talk that you did, the most recent event.

Yeah. Um, talking about the state of sales mindsets report, and I think both them together kind of tell the story, you know, they do. Yeah. Where they, where they originated from and how, how it's evolved into

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: This, this topic of intellectual authenticity that you were referring to. Yeah. Um, just moments ago.

Um. So we'll, we'll put those in the show notes for sure.

And so obviously with the, the Sales Transformation podcast itself, um, we have a series where we invite our master's students to come on and talk about their dissertation and final year projects. Um, what's been the kind of highlights for you, Phil, with the master costs?

Phil: I've, I've actually loved the Mastercast series, um, as well. I'm not sure how many masterclass, um, episodes we've, we've done in total. Um, but it's a fantastic platform to show the original research that our students are conducting. Um, in the course of their work, and I think of course, we, we have to recognize the quite extraordinary story of, of Grant and what he's achieved.

Eddie: Of course. Yeah.

Phil: Um, I remember when he first joined us on the, on the, the masters program that we ran and, you know, he'd not done anything academic and his. Life before, really. And you know, my goodness, he took to the masters. He, he was a very fluent writer, very quick worker. And um, you know, sort of his product that he built really at, at the, the, the scared.

So what, product that he built as a consequence of the master is, is extraordinary. Mm. Um, he was the first student we had that, uh, let's say, what's her, his achievements? He's, uh, he's got a doctorate

Eddie: mm-hmm.

Phil: As well since the masters, he's. Written a book

Eddie: he has. Yes.

Phil: And he's contributed to another.

Eddie: Yep.

Phil: As well. And uh, of course now he's a recognized global TEDx speaker and author. He's been on all sorts of. Uh, sort of magazine covers as well. He's, he's been extraordinary in that space. So, you know, grant is, we, we always thought that these masters projects would be a sort of an incubator of innovative ideas and his is just one, you know, his is one example.

But we have, we have many more, you know, we, we have. You know, Ivana's project on Return on innovation as a concept. Again, it's very new. I think that, you know, we need to explore this, uh, uh, this, uh, topic in, in much more, uh, depth. I think, uh, Simon Quentin's kind of, of course, um, master session around.

Emotional intelligence. Mm-hmm. And you know, that, that, but that, you know, there's so many, you know, Nick Roses on what he's done with the, the academic program at, at Sharp has been in Incre. I mean, there're just so many instances of individuals who have flourished as a consequence of doing the master's, you know, uh, sort of projects and programs.

And many, of course, now. Uh, have also achieved very senior positions in the companies, uh, you know, with whom they work, or, or new, new employers as well. So, yeah, I I've loved the master cast series 'cause it talks about their research. Yes. What influenced them, how they conducted their research. It's practice based, so it's not someone trying to promote, uh, a book.

It's someone that. You know, who, who is a practitioner and has done serious research on a topic. Um, so yeah, I've really enjoyed doing the Mastercast series as well.

Eddie: Yes. And so, and I've,

Phil: and you of course, I love, forgot

Eddie: about

Phil: that. I love what you're doing, Eddie.

Eddie: Oh, thank you,

Phil: Phil. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, and your LinkedIn posts, how you come back to what you, you produce on, on, you know, your.

Eddie: Yeah.

Phil: Your values framework for, for marketing.

Eddie: I mean, it, it, it is such, it take, you know, the Masters is such a journey, you know, and yeah. To revisit the, the hard work that you do is always a, a treat, but I think it also gives people who are considering the Masters and insight into

Phil: yeah,

Eddie: the type of work that they might be able to, um, do themselves.

And I think that's, that's what we're trying to do with the masters, you know, uh, the masterclass, it's a, it's a great platform like we were saying at the start, for, for people to, to flourish with their work. So,

Phil: yeah.

Eddie: Brilliant.

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Eddie: Do you have any closing remarks, any key reflections or even hopes for the future of the Sales Transformation podcast?

Phil: Closing remarks. Well, of course, you know, the sales podcast will continue. Um, and it should continue.

Um, I, I think it's such an important channel for people to be able to sort of listen, uh, as they drive or travel mm-hmm. Uh, to different places. it would be interesting for us to see a. the Sales Transformation Podcast recognized as, you know, to win awards maybe. Uh, so

Eddie: we're on it.

Phil: Are you on it? Yeah.

Eddie: Yeah.

Phil: I don't know what it would take for us to get into that. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, to, to get that sort of recognition. Um, but um, yeah, I think that may help set the benchmark. For what we need to do higher. Yeah.

Eddie: Yes, of course, of course. Well, here's to the next a hundred, 200, 500 episodes.

Phil: Well, I don't think I'll necessarily be doing them all, Eddie.

Um, because at some point, you know, the big retirement question needs to come up.

Eddie: Oh, okay. Fair enough, fair enough.

Phil: So I'm not sure I'll be here for the 400th.

Eddie: Well, we've gotta make it happen somehow. Um, but nonetheless, um, I hope you've enjoyed the Yes, yes, I have the whole process of the podcast

Phil: and, um, it's a very nice thought to get those people, uh, to say a few words

Eddie: as

Phil: well.

Yeah.

Eddie: I mean, it was all George. Great idea.

Phil: Uh, well done, George.

Eddie: Yeah. Um, so yeah, we'll, um, we'll, we'll circle back, uh, I'm sure on the 300th episode, uh, and see what, what changes have been since then. Um, but for now, thank you, Phil. It's been a pleasure.

Phil: Thank you.

Yeah.

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